Turks protest Islamic-rooted government

[Space-Cowboy]

ISTANBUL, Turkey - At least 300,000 Turks waving the red national flag flooded central Istanbul on Sunday to demand the resignation of the government, saying the Islamic roots of Turkey's leaders threatened to destroy the country's modern foundations.

Like the protesters — who gathered for the second large anti-government demonstration in two weeks — Turkey's powerful secular military has accused Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan of tolerating radical Islamic circles.

"They want to drag Turkey to the dark ages," said 63-year-old Ahmet Yurdakul, a retired government employee who attended the protest.

More than 300,000 people took part in a similar rally in Ankara two weeks ago.

Sunday's demonstration was organized more than a week ago, but it came a day after Erdogan's government rejected the military's warning about the disputed presidential election and called it interference that is unacceptable in a democracy.

The ruling party candidate, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul, failed to win a first-round victory Friday in a parliamentary presidential vote marked by tensions between secularists and the pro-Islamic government. Most opposition legislators boycotted the vote and challenged its validity in the Constitutional Court.

The military said Friday night that it was gravely concerned and indicated it was willing to become more openly involved in the process — a statement some interpreted as an ultimatum to the government to rein in officials who promote Islamic initiatives.

Sunday's crowd chanted that the presidential palace was "closed to imams."

Some said Parliament Speaker Bulent Arinc was an enemy of the secular system, because he said the next president should be "pious."

In the 1920s, with the Ottoman Empire in ruins, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk imposed Western laws, replaced Arabic script with the Latin alphabet, banned Islamic dress and granted women the right to vote.

The ruling party, however, has supported religious schools and tried to lift the ban on Islamic head scarves in public offices and schools. Secularists are also uncomfortable with the idea of Gul's wife, Hayrunisa, being in the presidential palace because she wears the traditional Muslim head scarf.

"We don't want a covered woman in Ataturk's presidential palace," said Ayse Bari, a 67-year-old housewife. "We want civilized, modern people there."

The military, one of the most respected institutions in Turkey, regards itself as the guardian of the secular system and has staged three coups since 1960.

"Neither Sharia, nor coup but fully democratic Turkey," read a banner carried by a demonstrator on Sunday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070429/..._demonstration


My opinion is Turkish govt. should remain strictly secular, but that's just me.

[SpicyBrownRapper]

I think we should nuke Israel for the heck of it, but thats just me.

[Space-Cowboy]

Originally Posted by SpicyBrownRapper

I think we should nuke Israel for the heck of it, but thats just me.

I want to nuke Madagascar..

[Burdah]

The Turkish people shouldn't have a problem with women, who chose to wear the headscarves. They should be more respectful and tolerant of people choices.

I believe that is should remain secular, but they need to stop trying to sell themselves to EU for a chance to be included in the Union. I disagree how they made it a requirement that women should not wear headscarves, if they want to hold public office or be in government. Turkey has democratic government, so I do not understand why they are worried about women wearing headscarves or their next president might be more religious. It is not going to become a dictatorship.

[nayeemx33]

"We don't want a covered woman in Ataturk's presidential palace," said Ayse Bari, a 67-year-old housewife. "We want civilized, modern people there."

[Space-Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Burdah

The Turkish people shouldn't have a problem with women, who chose to wear the headscarves. They should be more respectful and tolerant of people choices.

I believe that is should remain secular, but they need to stop trying to sell themselves to EU for a chance to be included in the Union. I disagree how they made it a requirement that women should not wear headscarves, if they want to hold public office or be in government. Turkey has democratic government, so I do not understand why they are worried about women wearing headscarves or their next president might be more religious. It is not going to become a dictatorship.

Well alright, I suppose I should have been more clear. I agree with everything you said except for the last line. Time and again [I use Bush as a prime example], has shown what happens when you have possible religiously charged presidents.

Now obviously it's possible for a president to be religious and yet remain secular on the political scene, but in my opinion those are few and far in between

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

Turkey has always been pretty cool for a Middle Eastern country.

[Burdah]

Originally Posted by Space-Cowboy

Well alright, I suppose I should have been more clear. I agree with everything you said except for the last line. Time and again [I use Bush as a prime example], has shown what happens when you have possible religiously charged presidents.

Now obviously it's possible for a president to be religious and yet remain secular on the political scene, but in my opinion those are few and far in between

My problem with their election, is that one of the reason is that they do not want to have a women, who wears a headscarf to be in the presidential place.

I would agree that there a few people who can remain secular and still be religious in politics as you said.

THe first choice of the president stepped aside and nominated the FM for the presidential position after he was criticized for being more religious. I think Turkish people should give the new president a chance and see how they fair under his leadership, rather than getting mad and protesting. The new president will not be able to pass laws that promote soley religious agenda, without having their parliament or the congress having a say in it.

[Burdah]

I also think that they can maintain their secular state with a more religious president, because it doesn't change their parliament or congress. they still would be secular i believe because this is just for choosing a president right now.

[Burdah]

Originally Posted by nayeemx33

"We don't want a covered woman in Ataturk's presidential palace," said Ayse Bari, a 67-year-old housewife. "We want civilized, modern people there."

How is a woman who chooses to wear a headscarf not civilized person. If they don't want to wear a headscarf, fine it their choice. At least don't criticize a person who chooses to follow her religion in her way. You can still be modern and wear a head scarf.

I don't understand what is their problem with people who wear headscarf.

[Gimmeck]

Originally Posted by Space-Cowboy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070429/..._demonstration


My opinion is Turkish govt. should remain strictly secular, but that's just me.

Did you hear about the conflict between the Turk Military and its Goverment?

[Space-Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Burdah

How is a woman who chooses to wear a headscarf not civilized person. If they don't want to wear a headscarf, fine. At least don't criticize a person who chooses to follow her religion in her way. You can still be modern and wear a head scarf.

I don't understand what is their problem with people who wear headscarf.

I've been told... and I don't know if this is true, maybe you can verify; the headscarf for your people has now become more a symbol of identity above and beyond it being a symbol of modesty. Again, I've heard that several times, it seems like it could have some truth to it, but I'm not sure.

In any case, I see your point, but my main thrust has always been that religion and state should stay separate.... leagues apart. If a religious president can separate his personal religious convictions from his duty to the national, secular agenda, then all the power to him, he deserves the office.

[Space-Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Gimmeck

Did you hear about the conflict between the Turk Military and its Goverment?

I heard a little bit, tell me more.

[Burdah]

Originally Posted by Gimmeck

Did you hear about the conflict between the Turk Military and its Goverment?

The military stated they would interfere if the new president is too religious. The military needs to stay under civilian control. Nothing good comes out of military leaders overthrowing the government and taking over.

[Burdah]

Originally Posted by Space-Cowboy

I've been told... and I don't know if this is true, maybe you can verify; the headscarf for your people has now become more a symbol of identity above and beyond it being a symbol of modesty. Again, I've heard that several times, it seems like it could have some truth to it, but I'm not sure.

In any case, I see your point, but my main thrust has always been that religion and state should stay separate.... leagues apart. If a religious president can separate his personal religious convictions from his duty to the national, secular agenda, then all the power to him, he deserves the office.

The headscarf is becoming more a symbol for modesty and strength (in my opinion) because all the western nations (mostly in Europe) have been attacking it because they view it as a symbol of oppression, not modesty.

Islam ask women to wear a headscarf to protect their modesty from the evil of the men, not to oppress them or treat them as second class citizens.

The European nations believe it the opposite.

[Gimmeck]

Originally Posted by Space-Cowboy

I've been told... and I don't know if this is true, maybe you can verify; the headscarf for your people has now become more a symbol of identity above and beyond it being a symbol of modesty. Again, I've heard that several times, it seems like it could have some truth to it, but I'm not sure.

In any case, I see your point, but my main thrust has always been that religion and state should stay separate.... leagues apart. If a religious president can separate his personal religious convictions from his duty to the national, secular agenda, then all the power to him, he deserves the office.

Well thats what Military is arguing that the government is too soft on radical islamist.
few weeks back a dozen christan missionary's were beheaded by extremists in the Southeast turkey. Military wanted to take a swift action against it, but the gov. has not deploy any troops down there.

So the head military general accused Turkish president of being too soft on these extremists and said that Turkey should remain secular.
Goverment fired back at the Military and said it has no authority to question the Gov.

So there is a BIG conflict between its Military and it Gov.

[Burdah]

Originally Posted by Space-Cowboy

I heard a little bit, tell me more.

Heres a link to bbc news that explains the role of Turkish Military.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6603141.stm

[w1ld]

Originally Posted by Space-Cowboy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070429/..._demonstration


My opinion is Turkish govt. should remain strictly secular, but that's just me.

Majority of turkish people is pro-islamic. You will see such type of protests only in modern cities like Istanbul, Ankara etc and since I lived there, I can tell you the ratio of protestors who are against the pro-islamic govt is far less then those who support the islamic govt. Army is trying to intervene but I think that will have adverse impact since US and EU already mentioned that Turkish Army should respect the democracy and do not interfere in what people are opting for, no matter if it would be a secular govt. or a pro-islamic govt.

[w1ld]

Originally Posted by Burdah

How is a woman who chooses to wear a headscarf not civilized person. If they don't want to wear a headscarf, fine it their choice. At least don't criticize a person who chooses to follow her religion in her way. You can still be modern and wear a head scarf.

I don't understand what is their problem with people who wear headscarf.

yeah these are the people who frequently tell people to respect democracy and public opinion

At one time it was forbidden for men to have beard (even a goatee) and for women to have scarf or cover theirselves in anyway at educational institutions in Turkey. There was a debate between leftists and rightists on this rule that I saw on their local television. One woman slammed the leftists by her comment, "Ok fine, you can take away the scarf from my head but can you take it off from my soul?" Wearing and not wearing a scarf absolutely do not mark a women as modern or civilized . It should be left to the people to decide the way they want to dress.

[undercova_luva]

Red sea: Tens of thousands of Secularist Turks wave their national flags to oppose the government's presidential candidate during a rally in Istanbul. Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul (islamist) refused on Sunday to withdraw from Turkey's presidential vote, ignoring pressure from the army and calls from tens of thousands of demonstrators worried about his Islamist past. Picture: Reuters / Reuters

[w1ld]

Originally Posted by undercova_luva

Red sea: Tens of thousands of Secularist Turks wave their national flags to oppose the government's presidential candidate during a rally in Istanbul. Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul (islamist) refused on Sunday to withdraw from Turkey's presidential vote, ignoring pressure from the army and calls from tens of thousands of demonstrators worried about his Islamist past. Picture: Reuters / Reuters

that is cool...its all people choice, the result will make it clear whatever they wanted.

[Burdah]

Originally Posted by w1ld

yeah these are the people who frequently tell people to respect democracy and public opinion

At one time it was forbidden for men to have beard (even a goatee) and for women to have scarf or cover theirselves in anyway at educational institutions in Turkey. There was a debate between leftists and rightists on this rule that I saw on their local television. One woman slammed the leftists by her comment, "Ok fine, you can take away the scarf from my head but can you take it off from my soul?" Wearing and not wearing a scarf absolutely do not mark a women as modern or civilized . It should be left to the people to decide the way they want to dress.

Doesn't that still exist, that the women cannot wear a headscarf in a university or college in Turkey.

[Cunard]

Originally Posted by Burdah

The military stated they would interfere if the new president is too religious. The military needs to stay under civilian control. Nothing good comes out of military leaders overthrowing the government and taking over.

it works well in muslim countries

as for turks demanding a seculer govt....good for them...they seem to have learned from watching islamic countries around them fall to islamic extreamism and what a mess those countries are

[desi_uk]

Originally Posted by Space-Cowboy

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070429/..._demonstration


My opinion is Turkish govt. should remain strictly secular, but that's just me.

the majority dont want a secular goverment

[Cunard]

Originally Posted by Gimmeck

Well thats what Military is arguing that the government is too soft on radical islamist.
few weeks back a dozen christan missionary's were beheaded by extremists in the Southeast turkey. Military wanted to take a swift action against it, but the gov. has not deploy any troops down there.

So the head military general accused Turkish president of being too soft on these extremists and said that Turkey should remain secular.
Goverment fired back at the Military and said it has no authority to question the Gov.

So there is a BIG conflict between its Military and it Gov.

Turkeys military has taken over 2-3 times in the past....straightend people up, and handed back control to civilians....perhaps its time to for the military to step in again and clean house