More Pertinent Questions of Self

[deception]

More Pertinent Questions of Self

Subjugation, resistance, manipulation define my history and today I share the same land presumably as equals with the perpetrators of misery against my ancestors. Langston Hughes might even tell me that I’m living with the master himself. Yet, people of colour like myself live under the liberal delusion of equality within the boundaries of his assimilationist commands. My fragile existence is premised on satisfying his obnoxious demands; while living like a hostage in the only home I know. Popular notions of my inadequateness proliferate Canada, my home; as its bureaucratic extensions evaluate my commitment to her. The dynamic interplay between race/ethnicity and the nation/state subvert any attempt to assert identity. Therefore, questions of race/ethnicity and the nation/state act as an aversion from more pertinent questions of self.

Sri Lanka in the mid eighties was entrenched in the bloodiest type of war, a war of fratricide; brother killing brother to preserve draconian beliefs of ethnic chauvinism. Civil War broke out in 1984 between Sri Lanka’s two largest ethnic groups; the Singhalese and the Tamils. Tamils including my parents were compelled to join the Tamil diaspora out of necessity; staying would be the equivalent of enduring government sanctioned euthanasia. The irony of my experience is that my initial cognitive exposure with racism was in Canada, the country that granted refuge to my family from racism.

Most refugee children are intrinsically pugnacious similar to newly domesticated animals. I could remember being bombarded by a kaleidoscope of unfamiliar images and sounds. I didn’t have the intellectual capacity to make sense of my confounding environment so I resisted getting in fights daily. My English language proficiency was poor; so I couldn’t retain cultural symbols and practices that were communicated to me. And I couldn’t conceptualize my idiosyncrasies from all the other kids at school; all I knew was that they looked different.

Age six was an instrumental portion of my developmental years. My parents had established their careers; my father was an award winning salesman in the insurance arena and my mother worked as an A/P accounting clerk. In addition, we had purchased our first house in a largely elderly Scottish/Irish Canadian neighbourhood. By now I had completely forgotten Tamil; which coincidentally foreshadowed many events to come. I began grade one in a new school with an entire new set of peers and authority figures. I climbed the social ladder rapidly; in fact I could venture to say that I was the most popular kid in school. Those were the perks of having your mom work for Famous Players and getting your friends into the movies free every weekend. Although, my ascendancy atop the social ladder was jaded by my subsequent encounters with Mrs. Witkin, the grade one teacher. Immediately on me arriving at school she escorted me to the ESL classroom and introduced me to the resident ESL teacher. Attending ESL has a
weird way of making you feel institutionalized; I was separated from my friends and missed invaluable socializing time. Additionally, to compound those problems were her frequent inferences to me as a “Rabble Rouser”. Those allegations were beyond my comprehension; all I knew was that I was unfairly labelled as the transgressor that stirred up trouble. In retrospect those early moments were implicit as well as complicit acts of discrimination. Negative social definitions were applied to me; I was subordinated and deprived of unalienable rights (Kinloch, 1974:54). Moreover, all four conditions of discriminatory treatment of: differential, prejudicial, disadvantageous and the denial of desire were satisfied in my experience. (Driedger, 1989; Hagan, 1987). Her Stigmatization by way of her labels as a culprit of all that was wrong with the class dichotomized me for my peers. Furthermore, my physical separation via my time in ESL denied me access to the conventional grade one classroom and more importantly my friends. While most children were learning basic arithmetical and comprehension skills I
was re-learning English.

Those early experiences delineated internally an incredibly abstract notion of race. I understood that my intellectual and physical capacity rivalled my classmates but the expectations of teachers didn’t mirror those realties that were blatantly evident. Moreover, reactions that people had to my caramel pigmentation aroused suspicions that I was perceived as different. The agents of socialization had “raced” me; classified people like me into a specific racial category and I was naively oblivious to the whole process. Race is a social mechanism that constructs a classification of human being based on “historical and geographic content of individual experience” (James, C., Chap. 2, pg 41). Race is only real insofar as its consequences but it does have a distinct persuasive social
persona over individuals as well as groups ( James, C, pg. 42). When visible minority kids first confront race it’s a perplexing epiphany that artificially enslaves you until death; the only freedom many of us will ever know.

High School was a time of conspicuous rebellion that signified our adolescent infantilism more than anything. One of the most vivid memories of high school was a confrontation I had with my OAC MOD WES history teacher, Mr. Robert Owen. Mr. Owen would often breakout into ridiculous announcement and pronouncement diatribes. On one particular occasion he went on about how the Irish Potato Famine was comparable to the suffering endured by the Indigenous people of North America. His semi-delusional assertions infuriated me so I challenged him and he responded with utter condescension of how he was an university graduate and respected member of the teaching faculty. I responded the only way I knew how, by calling him a “senile, out of touch, mentally handicapped mutherfucker”; and the vice principal responded the only way he knew how by suspending me for three days. The lesson in my hostilities with Mr. Owen was that he wasn’t the problem but rather the ideas of Ethnocentrism pervading the curriculum. Ethnocentrism is commonly viewed as the pervading assumption that racial/ethnic groups should observe a blind conformity for Judeo-Christian European values and practices. Likewise, complimentary to that view is the belief that European values and practices are preferable (James, C, pg. 132). The school administrators, teachers and curriculum display a tendency for intransigence and apathy; they are uncompromising in their views and could careless about the otherside.

In order to impose meaning on the world I developed critical counter views of European History. I started examining Tamil history and arrived at startling conclusions about Europeans specifically the British and their true roles in shaping history. I concluded that the British were conquerors not explorers that were genocide/homicidal pathological capitalists. In other words they killed my people, divided the remaining survivors then proceeded to exploit us and our resources. And the conundrum of all this was that we were responsible for our own misery. Popular accounts of the “Heathens” being liberated from their own “Backwardness” and “Tribalism” littered the pages of my history books. These revelations motivated me to contemplate notions of ethnicity or
what I refer to as my “Tamilness”. Thousands of miles away I shared a common ancestry and history with the Tamil, Sri Lankans, my ethnic group. Expressions of Tamil Nationalism are a common occurrence for Tamil ex-patriots because of the nature of ethnic conflict in our homeland. However, I’ve long rejected the unified/homogenic nationalistic front that many Tamil’s take on because of the pronounced heterogeneity that separates us by way of caste. Moreover, I’ve strongly resisted Tamil Nationalist groups that employ heinous measures for the advancement of their objectives and Tamil Canadians who act like a sycophantic cheering on from the sidelines of our safe borders. Although, these opinions that I’ve contrived independently on the plight of Tamils and my Tamilness are relatively new. That’s surprising when you consider that I haven’t pondered notions of Tamilness until the latter stages of high school.

That’s the enigma of being a Tamil-Canadian, the proverbial hyphenated
Canadian. My existence is a constant negotiation of who I am? And what greater society expects of me? Questions of that nature undoubtedly heighten awareness of ones identity. Seemingly identity is fundamentally questions of representation; in which selective memory is exercised to silence something and to allow something else to speak (Stuart Hall, 1995, pg.23). In Layman’s terms it’s what face you choose to show to the world. The Logic might be simple but the application of identity is baffling. We are all caught in the mass distraction from pertinent questions of self. Most of my life I’ve had to make sense of being the proverbial “Other” in Canada whose family left a nation and government that didn’t recognize them. My identity is unknown; I reserve my right to anonymity. My representation of who I am is my identity and I’ve yet to discover it. Rumi, the 13th century Sufi poet once wrote; “My soul lives the subtlest of passions, a different house every night under the stars”. Rumi was fascinated with the idea of being a
philosophical gypsy searching the world for something to believe and a face to reveal.

[dr_sinister1001]

the enigma of being a Tamil-Canadian, the proverbial hyphenated Canadian. My existence is a constant negotiation of who I am? And what greater society expects of me?

I can definitely relate man. Being a Sri Lankan-Tamil-Canadian myself, I can make many personal parallels with this essay.

[deception]

the enigma of being a Tamil-Canadian, the proverbial hyphenated Canadian. My existence is a constant negotiation of who I am? And what greater society expects of me?

I can definitely relate man. Being a Sri Lankan-Tamil-Canadian myself, I can make many personal parallels with this essay.

well its my story, an essay i wrote a couple years back to which i want to revisit and make several revisions to. the way i make the case for my racialization is too simple; race is amorphous, a big concoction with socially splintering consequences. on the countenance of us being both tamil I’m sure we have similarities and differences in the manner in which we encountered our tamilness. i’m lighter skin than you (hard to tell by your picture though) but I grew up in white suburbia as well so race really encroached on me. others have a more pleasant experience in discovering and living with their racialization. .

[dr_sinister1001]

the enigma of being a Tamil-Canadian, the proverbial hyphenated Canadian. My existence is a constant negotiation of who I am? And what greater society expects of me?

I can definitely relate man. Being a Sri Lankan-Tamil-Canadian myself, I can make many personal parallels with this essay.

well its my story, an essay i wrote a couple years back to which i want to revisit and make several revisions to. the way i make the case for my racialization is too simple; race is amorphous, a big concoction with socially splintering consequences. on the countenance of us being both tamil I’m sure we have similarities and differences in the manner in which we encountered our tamilness. i’m lighter skin than you (hard to tell by your picture though) but I grew up in white suburbia as well so race really encroached on me. others have a more pleasant experience in discovering and living with their racialization. .

I find that with white people it's less about the skin color and more about how they view their civilization to be superior to the other "savages" of the world. It's a sort of justified arrogance that they have, personally I find it delusional, but some of them really believe themselves to be superior and that it is their civic duty to save the world and make us all good Christians.

[deception]

I find that with white people it's less about the skin color and more about how they view their civilization to be superior to the other "savages" of the world. It's a sort of justified arrogance that they have, personally I find it delusional, but some of them really believe themselves to be superior and that it is their civic duty to save the world and make us all good Christians.


well that last bit in your response is white man's burden, rudyard kipling’s satire on the american invasion and subsequent occupation of the philippines which has taken on a personality of its own. white man’s burden is really to me, colonization vis a via ostensible missionary work which entails the swift action of acculturation. race is extensive, very robust; it involves simple shit like skin colour but more interestingly partition points like dubois "colour line". the colour line is the stratifying point of modernity situated on structural positions within the power structure. what that scholarly speak means is that there are clear cut winners and losers in modernity predicated on the colour of your skin and how akin u are to the white boys on top (how much ass u willing to kiss).

[dr_sinister1001]

well that last bit in your response is white man's burden, rudyard kipling’s satire on the american invasion and subsequent occupation of the philippines which has taken on a personality of its own. white man’s burden is really to me, colonization vis a via ostensible missionary work which entails the swift action of acculturation. race is extensive, very robust; it involves simple shit like skin colour but more interestingly partition points like dubois "colour line". the colour line is the stratifying point of modernity situated on structural positions within the power structure. what that scholarly speak means is that there are clear cut winners and losers in modernity predicated on the colour of your skin and how akin u are to the white boys on top (how much ass u willing to kiss).

Well I think that's obvious, skin color is an excellent tool to segregate different types of people. Agreed it has been used by Europeans in the past (i.e. South African apartheid). But in present day North America I don't believe that skin color is the major problem but rather it is segregation according to social status (classism) that's the new enemy. Skin color is more of a problem in former British colonies (i.e. India, parts of Africa) where British imperialism has exaggerated the differences between the native peoples of the land (divide and conquer).

Oh and by the way, Kipling's "White Man's Burden", it's not satire, it was an appeal to the American Government to enter the Philippines so they could tame the savage ways of it’s natives.

"What all that low brow speak means" is that Kipling however a native of British-India was ultimately in the end a product of his own imperialistic bloodline.

[deception]

Well I think that's obvious, skin color is an excellent tool to segregate different types of people. Agreed it has been used by Europeans in the past (i.e. South African apartheid). But in present day North America I don't believe that skin color is the major problem but rather it is segregation according to social status (classism) that's the new enemy. Skin color is more of a problem in former British colonies (i.e. India, parts of Africa) where British imperialism has exaggerated the differences between the native peoples of the land (divide and conquer).

Oh and by the way, Kipling's "White Man's Burden", it's not satire, it was an appeal to the American Government to enter the Philippines so they could tame the savage ways of it’s natives.

"What all that low brow speak means" is that Kipling however a native of British-India was ultimately in the end a product of his own imperialistic bloodline.


white man's burden (refer to below) is a satire and many ways a response to the lunacy of imperialism. remember kipling is british and the americans are a rival empire with a contentious past in relation to britian. besides, british literary culture has always taken a condescending approach towards the Americans.

there was this american general who rationalized the invasion of the philippines as a mission to "christianize them"; not knowing that the filipino’s were catholics 2 centuries prior, largely the making of spanish missionary work. the white man' burden is the ostensible pretext to disembowel the coloured man's sovereignty. kipling is calling the americans out on their bullshit in this satire but americans are so goddam stupid they didn't realize. many black freedom scholars read from white man's burden publicly, very controversial public reading i might add. if u read my last response fastidiously u will realize skin colour is just a marker but the consequences of it are tremendous. dubois incorporates class, but marxists are very limited in their reach. in fact, marxists rarely speak about race cause its amorphous; class is simple, u either have the means or u don't. the colour line is more comprehensive. it encroaches on everythings, its the fuckin titanic; class, gender, skin colour and everything else conceivable. structural positions correspond with the consequences of race. here is a simple analogy to illustrate the failures of marxism and my admiration of dubois work's; if a professional basketball player(thats unrecognized by store clerks), me and some white chick walk into a department store the basketball player is going to be harassed the most. while the black dude and presumably I, are being harassed, the white chick (which figures show are the greatest perpetrators of shoplifting) go klepto on store merchandise. social class did very little for the million dollar athlete and me in that department store scenario.


Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go bind your sons to exile
To serve your captives' need;
To wait in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught, sullen peoples,
Half-devil and half-child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain
To seek another's profit,
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
The end for others sought,
Watch sloth and heathen Folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No tawdry rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go mark them with your living,
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden--
And reap his old reward:
The blame of those ye better,
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of hosts ye humour
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought he us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloke your weariness;
By all ye cry or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent, sullen peoples
Shall weigh your gods and you.

Take up the White Man's burden--
Have done with childish days--
The lightly proferred laurel,
The easy, ungrudged praise.
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers!

[dr_sinister1001]

white man's burden (refer to below) is a satire and many ways a response to the lunacy of imperialism. remember kipling is british and the americans are a rival empire with a contentious past in relation to britian. besides, british literary culture has always taken a condescending approach towards the Americans.

there was this american general who rationalized the invasion of the philippines as a mission to "christianize them"; not knowing that the filipino’s were catholics 2 centuries prior, largely the making of spanish missionary work. the white man' burden is the ostensible pretext to disembowel the coloured man's sovereignty. kipling is calling the americans out on their bullshit in this satire but americans are so goddam stupid they didn't realize. many black freedom scholars read from white man's burden publicly, very controversial public reading i might add. if u read my last response fastidiously u will realize skin colour is just a marker but the consequences of it are tremendous. dubois incorporates class, but marxists are very limited in their reach. in fact, marxists rarely speak about race cause its amorphous; class is simple, u either have the means or u don't. the colour line is more comprehensive. it encroaches on everythings, its the fuckin titanic; class, gender, skin colour and everything else conceivable. structural positions correspond with the consequences of race. here is a simple analogy to illustrate the failures of marxism and my admiration of dubois work's; if a professional basketball player(thats unrecognized by store clerks), me and some white chick walk into a department store the basketball player is going to be harassed the most. while the black dude and presumably I, are being harassed, the white chick (which figures show are the greatest perpetrators of shoplifting) go klepto on store merchandise. social class did very little for the million dollar athlete and me in that department store scenario.

I'm aware of the poem (there's no need to be a condescending jackass)... and I suggest you do a biographical search on your boy Kipling, and check your historical facts. "White man's burden" is no satire, Kipling was not making a response to American imperialism but rather it was an appeal for a western power to fill the vacuum after the Spanish-American war (1898). British-American relations at the end of the 19th century were pretty good, and I don't know about "British literary culture" but I doubt Kipling or any of his imperialistic buddies would've wanted an eastern power such as Japan to fill the vacuum that was the Philippines.

Also your Basketball player (which I didn't automatically assume was black and so I was confused for a min.) race scenario is flawed, if the shopkeep was unaware that the black guy was a basketball player then he has no social status. That is the root of social status that society is aware of your status (while the shop keep was unaware of this fellow's status, thus you cannot make a comparison of race and class). And if you really believe that this model is true then you're living in a fantasy world. I've worked retail in the past and I can tell you that the camera is always on the most "thuged out" fellow not the one with the darkest skin.

[angrynacho]

Wow, this is a great post. Good replies.

How old are you? (I ask this because I wanted to gauge what years you were in high school).

About Kipling's White Man's Burden: I'm not an expert on Kipling's literature. I rarely read poetry because most of the time I can't stand it. It was hard enough for me to read the White Man's Burden. Weird rhythm.

Anyway, this is what I think:

I think the poem is what Sinister is suggesting: a justification for imperialism.

remember kipling is british and the americans are a rival empire with a contentious past in relation to britian.

That contentious past was practically forgotten by the late nineteeth century. On a social level, the average American felt really close to th English; after all, their existance traces back to them. This led to the development of the WASP in the America and what eventually was the justification for the persecution of other Europeans like the Irish and Italians.

I think the claim that Britian viewed the US as a rival empire doesn't hold. The US wasn't really considered a TRUE imperialist power by European countries until the Spanish-American war when the US broke a tradition of isolationism, asserted its naval powers and overtook Spain's position as an imperial superpower. Certainly Britain viewed Spain as a greater 'rival empire' than the US (esp with their histories!).

I also think the British knew Spain was on its way out. They would rather have a familiar face like the Americans controlling the Phillipines than another imperialist power (imagine if Japan took control of the Phillipines.)

I probably wrote that all funny. Oh well. You know what I'm saying?

[dr_sinister1001]

Wow, this is a great post. Good replies.

How old are you? (I ask this because I wanted to gauge what years you were in high school).

About Kipling's White Man's Burden: I'm not an expert on Kipling's literature. I rarely read poetry because most of the time I can't stand it. It was hard enough for me to read the White Man's Burden. Weird rhythm.

Anyway, this is what I think:

I think the poem is what Sinister is suggesting: a justification for imperialism.

remember kipling is british and the americans are a rival empire with a contentious past in relation to britian.

That contentious past was practically forgotten by the late nineteeth century. On a social level, the average American felt really close to th English; after all, their existance traces back to them. This led to the development of the WASP in the America and what eventually was the justification for the persecution of other Europeans like the Irish and Italians.

I think the claim that Britian viewed the US as a rival empire doesn't hold. The US wasn't really considered a TRUE imperialist power by European countries until the Spanish-American war when the US broke a tradition of isolationism, asserted its naval powers and overtook Spain's position as an imperial superpower. Certainly Britain viewed Spain as a greater 'rival empire' than the US (esp with their histories!).

I also think the British knew Spain was on its way out. They would rather have a familiar face like the Americans controlling the Phillipines than another imperialist power (imagine if Japan took control of the Phillipines.)

I probably wrote that all funny. Oh well. You know what I'm saying?


You basically, restated all the points in the 1st paragraph of my previous reply, way to go and add to the discussion....

P.S. It's Dr. Sinister to you

[angrynacho]

You basically, restated all the points in the 1st paragraph of my previous reply, way to go and add to the discussion....

P.S. It's Dr. Sinister to you

Actually, when I clicked 'post reply' you hadn't made your post yet. If you look at the post times, there is only a delay of twenty minutes between the two. After I submitted my post, I saw your reply.

That said, I don't think your first paragraph went into it as much as I did. In fact, the only similarity I can find is the connection between Japan as being a potential rival.

[dr_sinister1001]

Actually, when I clicked 'post reply' you hadn't made your post yet. If you look at the post times, there is only a delay of twenty minutes between the two. After I submitted my post, I saw your reply.

I suppose this is a possibility... I apologize.

[deception]

I'm aware of the poem (there's no need to be a condescending jackass)... and I suggest you do a biographical search on your boy Kipling, and check your historical facts. "White man's burden" is no satire, Kipling was not making a response to American imperialism but rather it was an appeal for a western power to fill the vacuum after the Spanish-American war (1898). British-American relations at the end of the 19th century were pretty good, and I don't know about "British literary culture" but I doubt Kipling or any of his imperialistic buddies would've wanted an eastern power such as Japan to fill the vacuum that was the Philippines.

Also your Basketball player (which I didn't automatically assume was black and so I was confused for a min.) race scenario is flawed, if the shopkeep was unaware that the black guy was a basketball player then he has no social status. That is the root of social status that society is aware of your status (while the shop keep was unaware of this fellow's status, thus you cannot make a comparison of race and class). And if you really believe that this model is true then you're living in a fantasy world. I've worked retail in the past and I can tell you that the camera is always on the most "thuged out" fellow not the one with the darkest skin.

i can't believe u guys are arguing against fact. kiplings language is culturally insensitive today but u can't separate him from his period. to suggest that his poem his littered with appeals and apologist overtones for imperialism is outrageous. in fact he systematically exposes the lunacy of imperialism particularly the vagarious imperial ventures of the americans. btw, british intellectuals have always ridiculed america both right and left jointly.

i'll extract a few lines which exhibits kiplings contempt for imperialism. first stanza;” Go bind your sons to exile", second stanza "To seek another's profit, And work another's gain." the entire third stanza in my opinion, the fourth stanza is irony, fifth stanza referring to the imperial subjects "The silent, sullen peoples Shall weigh your gods and you." and in the last stanza in regards to imperialism itself "Have done with childish days", "The easy, ungrudged praise.", "Through all the thankless years". i suggest u reread the satire and rethink the white man' burden cause it doesn't exist, don't u see the irony of it all?

as for the department store scenario, most marxists think class is omnipresent (its everywhere, so we can discern the lower classes from the upper classes), from that perspective i was approaching the analogy. Here are a few more examples, kobe is on trial for allegedly raping a working class white girl; in the eyes of the judicial system (pursuing the maximum penalty in spite of his clean record) and the public ( as witnessed by the outrage) he was just another ******. on a macro, structural scale routinely the democracies of non-white countries is circumvented and intervened by white countries without without media reprisal (calling them out on their bad). testament to that was is the french, american and canadian intervention into the functioning democracy of haiti this past year. aristide, the leader of haiti was rich and educated but he was guillotined in the media. the limitations of class abound.

[deception]

good little neat pragmatic example of how white man's burden works;
http://www.nba.com/hornets/news/shinn_040512.html

(look at the picture and read the synopsis of the pic.)

[dr_sinister1001]

i can't believe u guys are arguing against fact. kiplings language is culturally insensitive today but u can't separate him from his period. to suggest that his poem his littered with appeals and apologist overtones for imperialism is outrageous. in fact he systematically exposes the lunacy of imperialism particularly the vagarious imperial ventures of the americans. btw, british intellectuals have always ridiculed america both right and left jointly.

i'll extract a few lines which exhibits kiplings contempt for imperialism. first stanza;” Go bind your sons to exile", second stanza "To seek another's profit, And work another's gain." the entire third stanza in my opinion, the fourth stanza is irony, fifth stanza referring to the imperial subjects "The silent, sullen peoples Shall weigh your gods and you." and in the last stanza in regards to imperialism itself "Have done with childish days", "The easy, ungrudged praise.", "Through all the thankless years". i suggest u reread the satire and rethink the white man' burden cause it doesn't exist, don't u see the irony of it all?

as for the department store scenario, most marxists think class is omnipresent (its everywhere, so we can discern the lower classes from the upper classes), from that perspective i was approaching the analogy. Here are a few more examples, kobe is on trial for allegedly raping a working class white girl; in the eyes of the judicial system (pursuing the maximum penalty in spite of his clean record) and the public ( as witnessed by the outrage) he was just another ******. on a macro, structural scale routinely the democracies of non-white countries is circumvented and intervened by white countries without without media reprisal (calling them out on their bad). testament to that was is the french, american and canadian intervention into the functioning democracy of haiti this past year. aristide, the leader of haiti was rich and educated but he was guillotined in the media. the limitations of class abound.

Well back to some real discussion for a change. I apologize for the tardy response, I'm rather fond of debating with you (even if you can be unwarrantedly condescending at times).

You're still wrong about Kipling, run a biographical search on him and his "white man's burden". More than one historian has come to the same conclusion as I have about the motives of Kipling when he published the poem in McClure's Magazine 1899 directly after the Spanish-American war. The motives have been discussed above, the proof you can research yourself, but I'll get you started with this article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man's_Burden

Regarding the Class debate, I think you're talking about the product of European imperialism. In which case I agree with you, the white man calls the shots. But you can't use what happened to Kobe as a valid argument, then what of Robert Blake? What of OJ? Blake a white man, a celebrity at that jailed for his part in the murder of his wife. OJ a black man and a free man as well, after being accused of murdering his wife (if you ask me, I think he did it). So what it all boils down to in the end is how much money/social status/fame do you have?

[deception]

Well back to some real discussion for a change. I apologize for the tardy response, I'm rather fond of debating with you (even if you can be unwarrantedly condescending at times).

You're still wrong about Kipling, run a biographical search on him and his "white man's burden". More than one historian has come to the same conclusion as I have about the motives of Kipling when he published the poem in McClure's Magazine 1899 directly after the Spanish-American war. The motives have been discussed above, the proof you can research yourself, but I'll get you started with this article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_White_Man's_Burden

Regarding the Class debate, I think you're talking about the product of European imperialism. In which case I agree with you, the white man calls the shots. But you can't use what happened to Kobe as a valid argument, then what of Robert Blake? What of OJ? Blake a white man, a celebrity at that jailed for his part in the murder of his wife. OJ a black man and a free man as well, after being accused of murdering his wife (if you ask me, I think he did it). So what it all boils down to in the end is how much money/social status/fame do you have?

There is such a revisionist tale that these wannabe scholarly websites spin that it completely obstructs the factuality of the matter. here is a link http://www.boondocksnet.com/ai/kipling/sfbulletin.html to a reprint of the San Francisco Bulletin (Feb. 7, 1899) appraisal of white man's burden confirming my viewpoint. again, from the same website jim zwick argues "United States latched onto the phrase "white man's burden" as a euphemism for imperialism that seemed to justify the policy as a noble enterprise." http://www.boondocksnet.com/ai/kipling/ .just as i implied in one of my first posts the americans are so goddam stupid they didn't realize kilping was calling them out on their bull.

i really think kiplings work has been misinterpreted because of his use of abrasive language and the proclivity of many pseudo kipling “know it alls” to separate him from the literary culture of his era. my father, an immigrant of course not knowing the vernacular of english was bugging me this weekend about my incessant profanity. i told him that context was everything and i proceeded to tell him the different ways in how "fuck" could be used. well he was unhappy with my explanation. the point i'm trying to make is that language is an aversion from more pertinent issues like intention. FUCK the white man’s burden!!!

[angrynacho]

I'm opting out of the argument here because:

My argument is based off of (reasonable?) assumptions based on historical 'fact'.

His is based off of the text.

And I'm no good at reading that thing.

[dr_sinister1001]

Another excellent thread from back in the day.

[adren@line]

well isnt that special.

[Ragga_NZ]

I kno this is a bit late...but big ups for the essay man.it's awesome. has nice big words too...ESL must've worked like a charm huh? ;)

I'm an Indian born in Fiji and raised in New Zealand and i can soooo relate to a lot of your essay

[typeOnegative]

I find that with white people it's less about the skin color and more about how they view their civilization to be superior to the other "savages" of the world. It's a sort of justified arrogance that they have, personally I find it delusional, but some of them really believe themselves to be superior and that it is their civic duty to save the world and make us all good Christians.Dont you think desis too display streaks of cultural superiority too? ;) And get down to teach the whole world yoga .... :lol: Quit the generalization dude.

[dr_sinister1001]

Dont you think desis too display streaks of cultural superiority too? ;) And get down to teach the whole world yoga .... :lol: Quit the generalization dude.

If you don't have anything intelligent to say, please don't address me, I try to avoid morons that lack basic contextual comprehension.

:idea: