are shias real muslims

[comunistdaght3r]

because BMW-Racer doesn't seem to think so
:( :( dumbass :( :(

[chutney whore]

shit stirrer :razz:

[Space-Cowboy]

*reserved*

[Ash_s2002]

rofl..rofl..rofl
kthxbye

[comunistdaght3r]

rofl..rofl..rofl
kthxbye

man youre like my only shia friend on here <3 <3 sup

[nayeemx33]

Sure

[Ash_s2002]

man youre like my only shia friend on here <3 <3 sup
Im cool..hows you long time no speak

[ahmad00]

yes. they are as "real" as it gets e_e

[comunistdaght3r]

yeah i already know the answer is yes. this thread was just made to stir some shit but BMW Racer won't speak to me

[comunistdaght3r]

Im cool..hows you long time no speak

pretty good, haven't been on here or ** much lately.
im thinking of going to pakistan this december.
lalala howreeee things on your end?

[Ash_s2002]

pretty good, haven't been on here or ** much lately.
im thinking of going to pakistan this december.
lalala howreeee things on your end?
man I wanna go to either Chicago or Pakistan in the winter..prolly the first more..
And yeh awesome ..but fasting is hard and also uni sucks lol

[roy_desi]

"real?" they're hardcore. they beat themselves to a bloodied mess to fuckin celebrate.

thats beyond real in my opinion.

[comunistdaght3r]

im real :) the way i walk the way i talk

[BMW-racer]

because BMW-Racer doesn't seem to think so
:( :( dumbass :( :(
wtf?
i never said shias aren't muslims.
all i said was that i don't care if Ahmadinejad doesn't hold Sunnis in high regard.
i am sunni, and i don't care what he thinks about us just like I don't care what Bush thinks about Sunnis.

[khanbaba_]

Fake.

[Ash_s2002]

Fake.
lol mang...i need to make anti-shia threads just so you can post mang

[desi_playa]

Fake.


OH SHIT SON!!!!

you makin a comeback??

[khanbaba_]

OH SHIT SON!!!!

you makin a comeback??
No.

[desi_playa]

No.


damn, i got happy for no reason.

[khanbaba_]

damn, i got happy for no reason.
I am lamed. :D

[desi_playa]

I am lamed. :D


lol, well what are the restrictions??

[khanbaba_]

lol, well what are the restrictions??
Change your password every day
and worse

[kashmiri_ryder]

yaa except they pray different style

[Guddia]

oh no sunni Vs shia

[BadFingerBoogie]

lol mang...i need to make anti-shia threads just so you can post mang

:roflbow:

[illin]

for the shias


http://www.resonantstore.com/images/products/1263/257/m/FFFFFF/0/

[TigerStyle786]

yaa except they pray different style

Try your answer again' After watching the video
tClDKMksG7w
Warning: following video exposes a cult that poses as muslim(donot try this at home, if ur SANE)

[imdaman99]

seriously, what gives ANYONE the right to say we aren't muslims? let the judging be from Allah and Allah only, thank you very much :)

shia-sunni bhai bhai :grouphug: i did that chant way back in the day :kekeke:

[BornToBreak_Rulz]

[QUOTE=TigerStyle786]Try your answer again' After watching the video
tClDKMksG7w
Warning: following video exposes a cult that poses as muslim(donot try this at home, if ur SANE)[/QUOTE

I didnt even had to watch the whole video to understand that its made by some Wahabbi sunni muslim who thinks of shias as non muslims.It's full of propaganda and BS and no the shias didnt say any of the things which are in the video.Their is a difference in opinion among shias and sunnis about the caliphate but its not like they have called the prophet's companions names.Try better next time.

P.S:I am a sunni who believes shias are as much muslims as sunnis

[Guddia]

Tell me what the video is about? I’m at work can’t watch it.

[Gimmeck]

How do you expect Muslims in Iraq to get along when those who aren't even involved in that conflict have opinions such as posted in this thread.

People on RD often point out how miserably US is losing the war in Iraq. pfft go figure.

[phishuff]

yes they are. :)

[BMW-racer]

again, for the slow folks who've missed my post:
i never made such statement.

[TigerStyle786]

[QUOTE=TigerStyle786]Try your answer again' After watching the video
tClDKMksG7w
Warning: following video exposes a cult that poses as muslim(donot try this at home, if ur SANE)[/QUOTE

I didnt even had to watch the whole video to understand that its made by some Wahabbi sunni muslim who thinks of shias as non muslims.It's full of propaganda and BS and no the shias didnt say any of the things which are in the video.Their is a difference in opinion among shias and sunnis about the caliphate but its not like they have called the prophet's companions names.Try better next time.

P.S:I am a sunni who believes shias are as much muslims as sunnis

OK BornToBreak_Rulz, May Allah have mercy on u and ur family. As for the footage is of the cult's silliness, it shudnt be news to you and it's certainly not "MADE UP" as we all have witnessed these cults marching in our own countries shedding blood of innocent.

It's propaganda? yes its propagating the truth regarding the cult' which we need to be aware of. As far as what the cult beliefs are, u seem to be in denial well u can be given references to their most authentic hadith books such as Al-kaafi, cursing the wife of prophet, the sahaba; calling all sahaba kafir except the 5, the belief their imams r infallible and receive wahee every juma' and list goes on n on. If proof of such these beliefs of the cult is what u desire, u'll be presented with it.

it's sad that some of the shia kids themselves are not taught some of their dark beliefs n continue to follow the cult of their forefathers. Thats why, scholars have even advised sunni's to becareful and not follow their religion blindly lots of deviants are out there inviting Muslims to the gates of hellfire.

Know that this is not personal hatred of this cult' n The scholars are very cautious in matters of takfir.

May Allah guide us all.

[aliG_reinvented]

Try your answer again' After watching the video


aaand the first troll to fall victim to the thread. :wavey:






http://www.sillyjokes.co.uk/images/p-jokes/toilet/long-turd-big.jpg

[Irreligious Left]

communistdaster seems to put everyone she talks to in private out on blast.

[aliG_reinvented]

http://www.stevequayle.com/News.alert/03_Terror/03_Terror_pics/031008.Saudi.King.Faud.jpg

[KurtaPyjama]

fake muslims?

get them to show chunky a pic of themselves touching their noses. :idea:

[baha_dmx]

because BMW-Racer doesn't seem to think so
:( :( dumbass :( :(


Yes they are. Wtf does a BMW racer knows, he doesn't even have a good taste in cars.

[Sikh4Lyfe]

OK BornToBreak_Rulz, May Allah have mercy on u and ur family. As for the footage is of the cult's silliness, it shudnt be news to you and it's certainly not "MADE UP" as we all have witnessed these cults marching in our own countries shedding blood of innocent.

It's propaganda? yes its propagating the truth regarding the cult' which we need to be aware of. As far as what the cult beliefs are, u seem to be in denial well u can be given references to their most authentic hadith books such as Al-kaafi, cursing the wife of prophet, the sahaba; calling all sahaba kafir except the 5, the belief their imams r infallible and receive wahee every juma' and list goes on n on. If proof of such these beliefs of the cult is what u desire, u'll be presented with it.

it's sad that some of the shia kids themselves are not taught some of their dark beliefs n continue to follow the cult of their forefathers. Thats why, scholars have even advised sunni's to becareful and not follow their religion blindly lots of deviants are out there inviting Muslims to the gates of hellfire.

Know that this is not personal hatred of this cult' n The scholars are very cautious in matters of takfir.

May Allah guide us all.

Why are all the overly religious people on http://forums.ratedesi.com ugly? I would like to see your god answer that one.

[PakPlaya69]

OK BornToBreak_Rulz, May Allah have mercy on u and ur family. As for the footage is of the cult's silliness, it shudnt be news to you and it's certainly not "MADE UP" as we all have witnessed these cults marching in our own countries shedding blood of innocent.

It's propaganda? yes its propagating the truth regarding the cult' which we need to be aware of. As far as what the cult beliefs are, u seem to be in denial well u can be given references to their most authentic hadith books such as Al-kaafi, cursing the wife of prophet, the sahaba; calling all sahaba kafir except the 5, the belief their imams r infallible and receive wahee every juma' and list goes on n on. If proof of such these beliefs of the cult is what u desire, u'll be presented with it.

it's sad that some of the shia kids themselves are not taught some of their dark beliefs n continue to follow the cult of their forefathers. Thats why, scholars have even advised sunni's to becareful and not follow their religion blindly lots of deviants are out there inviting Muslims to the gates of hellfire.

Know that this is not personal hatred of this cult' n The scholars are very cautious in matters of takfir.

May Allah guide us all.

Are you too blind to see that these INNOCENTS people are doing this to themslef not to others??? Please refain from calling us a CULT. With all due respect who might you be to judge shias in the first place or have you forgotten that judging is upto Allah and not you me or the video maker.

Mate why dont you produce some hardcore evidence to all these accusations that you put forward as a bloke of your intelligence wont make such comments with out enough inbsight into shiaism.

[HeAvYmAcHiNeGuN]

because BMW-Racer doesn't seem to think so
:( :( dumbass :( :(


well i think nobody has da right to say dat shias are not muslims
i can see aloot of sunni's doin things which they are not supposed to do....they are also muslims
i am sunni....i used to drink
just quoting an example....what i heard is....ALLAH says dat who so eva drinks or is havin pre marital sex will NOT b forgiven
and i have seen alooot of muslims doin dat
so i would like to say to u all....follow ur religion...but at da same time
give respect to other religions (beleifs)

[TigerStyle786]

Why are all the overly religious people on http://forums.ratedesi.com ugly? I would like to see your god answer that one.

Humans are the best of Allah's creation. Beauty is in the eye of beholder isn't it? I dunno' about u, but i believe there is whole lot more to a person than his facial curvatures, specially personality.

Anyways good luck finding cute people :p don't complain, when they reject you tho (just kidding)

[RYUK]

God knows!

Even if u r a sunni, doesn't mean u r muslims in god eyes

There's sunnis who doesn't fast doesn't do salat etc etc.. likewise for shia. So can these ppl be called muslims ?

There's probably not many real muslims in god's eyes haha

[TigerStyle786]

Are you too blind to see that these INNOCENTS people are doing this to themslef not to others??? Please refain from calling us a CULT. With all due respect who might you be to judge shias in the first place or have you forgotten that judging is upto Allah and not you me or the video maker.

Mate why dont you produce some hardcore evidence to all these accusations that you put forward as a bloke of your intelligence wont make such comments with out enough inbsight into shiaism.

O' ur from "them" aswell? hmm lots of them in this joint yea.
Not blind, yes i m aware they r harming themselves but even that is sad, i wudnt stay mute while c-ing someone jumpin off a cliff. But Anyhow, u boys wanna cut urselves? go ahead' i'll get out of the way. I am not the judge of "them" the scholars of Ahle Sunah Wal Jamma' have made a ruling on it and don't enjoy taking ppl out of fold of islam. it's not their favorite thing, trust. Rather they invite ppl to the way of the sunnah' but seems like "them" boys are happy with the way of forefathers.

Yes Allah will judge between what people differ, I am in no authority to judge. It's just a video touching on very few points.

Understand its ones actions or lack off is sufficent in one to leave fold of islam as prophet has informed us ie: one who abandons Salah' or one who worships anyone other than Allah or give attributes of Allah to anyone else, ie: them imaams.

Thank you for the compliment, evidence is sufficient against the shirk of the raafidhi "them" so if ur up for the read, will be glad to pass it on...

May Allah guide us all to the way of the prophet.

[TigerStyle786]

well i think nobody has da right to say dat shias are not muslims
i can see aloot of sunni's doin things which they are not supposed to do....they are also muslims
i am sunni....i used to drink
just quoting an example....what i heard is....ALLAH says dat who so eva drinks or is havin pre marital sex will NOT b forgiven
and i have seen alooot of muslims doin dat
so i would like to say to u all....follow ur religion...but at da same time
give respect to other religions (beleifs)

yes its all a matter of Akeeda' the most important aspect of islam is one's Akeeda' of Tawheed. Sunni have the akeeda' part and yes they are not perfect, yes they may be major sinners, but they r muslims becuz of their akeeda'
ok u r sunni, good may allah hav mercy on u and ur family. (dont reveal ur sin, unless u dont wannt ur sin to be forgiven by Allah) ok u drank (majr sin)
No, premartial sex (zina) Allah can forgive... drinking Allah can forgive... no such verse in quran of which u speak.

In Quran, Allah said, he will forgive every sin except "SHIRK" thats why i keep emphasizing akeeda'

learn about tawheed, is my advice to you all, inshallah in coming days i'll put up a video regarding akeeda of Sunni (ahle sunnah wal Jamah) So we have a clear idea of our akeeda' and what is considered shirk that which takes one fold out of islam, Inshallah.

Sure, follow the religion and tolerate beliefs of unbelievers. As muslims we dont force beliefs on people.

[baliwala]

believe in one God, right?
:werd:

[paki_Biyatch123]

I'm a shia.
so i certainly hope so.

[PakPlaya69]

O' ur from "them" aswell? hmm lots of them in this joint yea.
Not blind, yes i m aware they r harming themselves but even that is sad, i wudnt stay mute while c-ing someone jumpin off a cliff. But Anyhow, u boys wanna cut urselves? go ahead' i'll get out of the way. I am not the judge of "them" the scholars of Ahle Sunah Wal Jamma' have made a ruling on it and don't enjoy taking ppl out of fold of islam. it's not their favorite thing, trust. Rather they invite ppl to the way of the sunnah' but seems like "them" boys are happy with the way of forefathers.

Yes Allah will judge between what people differ, I am in no authority to judge. It's just a video touching on very few points.

Understand its ones actions or lack off is sufficent in one to leave fold of islam as prophet has informed us ie: one who abandons Salah' or one who worships anyone other than Allah or give attributes of Allah to anyone else, ie: them imaams.

Thank you for the compliment, evidence is sufficient against the shirk of the raafidhi "them" so if ur up for the read, will be glad to pass it on...

May Allah guide us all to the way of the prophet.

Yeah mashallah i am a follower of Prohpet(PBUH) and his true AhelBait. YOu are wong there ain many of us here but yes there are more sensible muslims here than yourself who dont judge anyopne of the basis of their sect and call em names but then again you do reserve the right to try your best to break Muslim Ummah into cults ans sects, true?? Brother i can mention a billion things sunnah Wal Jammah do which are not according to Prohets teachings but see i ain going to be the one to show the divide in Ummah as thats the worst thing one can ever imagine. You might want to look into the ruling of Jamaet AlAzhar university in cairo egypt about shias, one of the biggest islamic institution in the world and probably the only valid authority to give valid islamic Fatwas. They are considered a sect of Islam not a cult as you suggest unless you are willing to take on your own Ahle Sunnah Wal Jammah scholars.


How on earth did you figure out that we abandon Salah or worship anyone but God. You seriously need to look into these accusations mate before labeling what you saw as shirk.I doubt if you are helping your Sawab count win this holy month by accusing your fellow muslims of shirk. You possess no evidence to prove we worship anyone but Allah. Show me one piece of mnarration fomr our books where we compare Imams to Allah. Do you even know the definition of shirk????

Now just to clear something, there is a difference between traditions and religion. Cutting yourself with knives or chains is just a tradition not the part of religion as you may think. Its not even necessary (wajib) to do all that but mustahib to moan and cry for the Great masacare of Karbala. Dont know where you come form but in Pakistan, pominant Sunnah Wal ammah scholars also join in these processions of muharrum and address these gatherings of followers of both sects.

May Allajh give your a brain bigger than your currently have. May allah help you gain some more knowledge of how to treat your fellow muslims and May Allah give you strength to go and search instead of believing what you heard from unrealiable sources about your fellow muslims.

[BMW-racer]

i got a private message this morning:
Shia are real Muslims (Alhamdul Illah)
if anyone of you have any dought about so please contact me at
<onaen@yahoo.com>
i will slove your problem.
plz convey this message to everyone cause i havnt the facility to post here in the forums.
and ha the videos posted here are not by shias, cause the the stuff in it is just haram, so can shias say such haram things, these are the intrigues of some peoples how want to create differences between us.both are muslims (Alhamdul Illah) but just only 3 Differences and except that everything is same on both sides.
So please feel free any time to contact me.
if you pplz havnt time to write so just mail me you id's along with your name.I will invite you all in the private chatroom in the coming saturday night where we all can discuss it freely.
please dear brother dont forget to post this in forums.

Thanks.

[Nilü]

I guess 200000000 post about if Shia is a muslim or not.

[BMW-racer]

Yes they are. Wtf does a BMW racer knows, he doesn't even have a good taste in cars.
Shias are Muslims, I never said anything opposing that.

[Nilü]

seriously, what gives ANYONE the right to say we aren't muslims? let the judging be from Allah and Allah only, thank you very much :)

shia-sunni bhai bhai :grouphug: i did that chant way back in the day :kekeke:
Amen.

[ilyas@!!oops!!]

all i know they're :nuts:

[nikefc7]

wtf?
i never said shias aren't muslims.
all i said was that i don't care if Ahmadinejad doesn't hold Sunnis in high regard.
i am sunni, and i don't care what he thinks about us just like I don't care what Bush thinks about Sunnis.

I dont ever recall him looking down upon sunnis or as a matter of fact ever making statement that lead to division between the two. if anything he has done and said a hell lot more for the 98% sunni muslim population in palestine then the sunni arab leaders themselves living in neighbouring countries. even if it meant making him sound like a mad man infront of the world!!!

[BMW-racer]

I dont ever recall him looking down upon sunnis or as a matter of fact ever making statement that lead to division between the two. if anything he has done and said a hell lot more for the 98% sunni muslim population in palestine then the sunni arab leaders themselves living in neighbouring countries. even if it meant making him sound like a mad man infront of the world!!!
man, i don't even know if he said anything with regards to Sunnis.
it was actually Space-Cowboy dodging the argument by using a "religion-card."
the following would explain where i am coming from:
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c304/dadasaab/space.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c304/dadasaab/space1.jpg

[nikefc7]

well that comment should be aimed at space cowboy then.

[BMW-racer]

well that comment should be aimed at space cowboy then.
yeah. i don't know why space-cowboy would think that Shia/Sunni sectors matter in a debate of whether the US should have Nuclear Weapons or not.

[aliG_reinvented]

http://i20.tinypic.com/nn33f5.jpg

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6493/ehondars5.gif

http://www.lifeinwidescreen.com/siihp/kfcbball.gif

http://i21.tinypic.com/4g6xxs this one reminds me of wahabis

http://e.photos.cx/ug06c381-314.gif

http://e.photos.cx/ug04de18-c94.gif

http://e.photos.cx/ug0e5501-918.gif

http://e.photos.cx/ug0c96e6-c1e.gif

[aliG_reinvented]

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc30/oraclephotos/150_tits.gif

http://e.photos.cx/Mayuka_Okada-d99.gif

http://i12.tinypic.com/4mmcrki.gif

[stolen]

OK BornToBreak_Rulz, May Allah have mercy on u and ur family. As for the footage is of the cult's silliness, it shudnt be news to you and it's certainly not "MADE UP" as we all have witnessed these cults marching in our own countries shedding blood of innocent.

It's propaganda? yes its propagating the truth regarding the cult' which we need to be aware of. As far as what the cult beliefs are, u seem to be in denial well u can be given references to their most authentic hadith books such as Al-kaafi, cursing the wife of prophet, the sahaba; calling all sahaba kafir except the 5, the belief their imams r infallible and receive wahee every juma' and list goes on n on. If proof of such these beliefs of the cult is what u desire, u'll be presented with it.

it's sad that some of the shia kids themselves are not taught some of their dark beliefs n continue to follow the cult of their forefathers. Thats why, scholars have even advised sunni's to becareful and not follow their religion blindly lots of deviants are out there inviting Muslims to the gates of hellfire.

Know that this is not personal hatred of this cult' n The scholars are very cautious in matters of takfir.

May Allah guide us all.

dont calls shias a cult as u very well know we're not a cult. another thing shedding blood of innocents? where the heck did u get that from.. oh i get it hearsay or wat do u sit on the side every year in muhurrum just to see if anyones dead..

omg we need to be aware of shias, and ur talking about al-kafi, when was the last time u read the sahih hadith books/

its sad that some one like you doesnt have any knowledge and if u did, u wont be chatting shit. so sort it out.. go educate urself..

[xogirlie girlxo]

[6:159] Those who divide themselves into sects do not belong with
you. Their judgment rests with GOD, then He will inform
them of everything they had done.

[30:32] (Do not fall in idol worship,) like those who divide
their religion into sects; each party rejoicing with what they have.

[42:14] Ironically, they broke up into sects only after the
knowledge had come to them, due to jealousy and
resentment among themselves. If it were not for a
predetermined decision from your Lord to respite them for
a definite interim, they would have been judged
immediately. Indeed, the later generations who inherited
the scripture are full of doubts.

Hey guys. Just wanted to say, sectism is very offensive in the sight Of Allah swt. Every single one of you needs a wakeup call. As I understand most of you if not all, follow a sect, knowing that indeed it is totally against Islam. As the generation of today, with all the facilities you have at your disposal, living in such poverished countries, going to institutions of learning, did you not once stop to think, that you all have followed and upheld to this day the same dispicable mistake made by the people of the book, and by a couple of retards who divided a perfected religion b/c they differed on who the effing next caliph was going to be. I dont think that was an important enough issue to stray from the true deen and incur the displeasure of God. Now as you have probabaly heard theyre are 72 sects in Islam! This is b/c muslims today have strayed away from the Quran. You give superstitions, cultural/rural beliefs, ignorant scholars, and fabricated hadeeth more importance than the word of God. If you consider yourself a muslim then you probably know that the word of God is the Quran, which He Himself took the responsiblity of. He never took on the responsiblity of any "so called" hadeeth nor does he give a shit about who the caliph was going to be after Muhammad's (pbuh) death. He only cares about ur shahada, and that you consider Him and only him and His word your true and uncorrupted deen. Considering/calling yourself a part of aprticular sect is against the teaching of God. I consider myself a muslim and only a muslim.

[TigerStyle786]

Yeah mashallah i am a follower of Prohpet(PBUH) and his true AhelBait. YOu are wong there ain many of us here but yes there are more sensible muslims here than yourself who dont judge anyopne of the basis of their sect and call em names but then again you do reserve the right to try your best to break Muslim Ummah into cults ans sects, true?? Brother i can mention a billion things sunnah Wal Jammah do which are not according to Prohets teachings but see i ain going to be the one to show the divide in Ummah as thats the worst thing one can ever imagine. You might want to look into the ruling of Jamaet AlAzhar university in cairo egypt about shias, one of the biggest islamic institution in the world and probably the only valid authority to give valid islamic Fatwas. They are considered a sect of Islam not a cult as you suggest unless you are willing to take on your own Ahle Sunnah Wal Jammah scholars.


How on earth did you figure out that we abandon Salah or worship anyone but God. You seriously need to look into these accusations mate before labeling what you saw as shirk.I doubt if you are helping your Sawab count win this holy month by accusing your fellow muslims of shirk. You possess no evidence to prove we worship anyone but Allah. Show me one piece of mnarration fomr our books where we compare Imams to Allah. Do you even know the definition of shirk????

Now just to clear something, there is a difference between traditions and religion. Cutting yourself with knives or chains is just a tradition not the part of religion as you may think. Its not even necessary (wajib) to do all that but mustahib to moan and cry for the Great masacare of Karbala. Dont know where you come form but in Pakistan, pominant Sunnah Wal ammah scholars also join in these processions of muharrum and address these gatherings of followers of both sects.

May Allajh give your a brain bigger than your currently have. May allah help you gain some more knowledge of how to treat your fellow muslims and May Allah give you strength to go and search instead of believing what you heard from unrealiable sources about your fellow muslims.

O you guys are from the Ahle bayt? eh family of prophet? what about the cursing of wife of prophet Ayesha? calling her that which i can repeat.
u still think ur from the ahley bayt. allright

causing division in ummah' is if "them" were part of the Ummah. Alazhar Uni, yes indeed has produce great aalims in past, i dunno about modern times. It is not what it used to be, since one of their prominent aalims have given approving of suicide boming, which the Scholars of Salafiyya has strongly condemned it. What can you expect from such scholars who fall into extremism. May Allah give them chance to repent n have mercy on them.

Abandoning of salah, was just an example that one leaving fold of islam if his actions oppose tawheed, ie: bowing b4 someone who's ur elder etc etc... Not directed at you, u asked for evidence may be u didnt watch the end of video where ppl were prostrating to the Shrine of Imams. Hey such ppl exist in Sunnis claiming ppl to (sufis) May Allah guide them. U asked for some evidence
of akeeda of shirk in shia texts

"The Imaams have knowledge of whatever occurred in the past and whatever will happen in the future, and nothing is concealed from them." (Al- Kulaini. AL- KAAFI, p.260)

"The person who says that the present Quran is complete is a liar because the “complete Quran” was compiled by Hazrat Ali" (Fasl-ul-khitaab fee tahreef kitaab rab-ul- arbab, page #4, Noori Tibri).

"The Imams posses all the knowledge granted to angels, prophets and messengers." (Al- Kulaini. AL- KAAFI, p.255)

Ok cutting is tradition? knives and chains? ok Well even so such traditional is baatil' as it opposition to the command of prophet that one should not do mOURN more than 3 days after death one a perosn. This is going on for yrs n yrs by "them" such is extremism in religion n why should one cry if they were martyrs cuz they go to janna'. You'd only need to cry if they were not martyrs hehe Scholars of Sunnah par-taking in these mournings in PK?Speech is but this ma'tam, yea one of those self-proclaimed scholars they r. not doubt there r many deviant groups within sunni ppl who have left the fold of "ahle sunnah wal jamma" May Allah guide them. as prophet said it islam will be divided into 73 sects and only 1 on the haqq. May Allah make us amongst them.

Thx, yes May Allah give me a bigger brain,yes Ameen to all these dua's you said, Inshallah.

[not-now]

strictly speaking theres no such thing as sects in islam there shouldn't be any sunni or shia only muslim,we don't need to have something to divide us and it's not for us to judge who's muslim and who's not only god knows as long as someone believes in one god and muhammed as his last messenger they're muslim.

[khanbaba_]

To deny the Khilafat of the Shaikhain [first two Caliphs] is kufar. There is Ijma of Sahabas on this which is of the level of qatiayaat like an ayat of the Quran. Hence Shias [Imamis] are not Muslims.

[Imam Abu Hanifa].

[TigerStyle786]

dont calls shias a cult as u very well know we're not a cult. another thing shedding blood of innocents? where the heck did u get that from.. oh i get it hearsay or wat do u sit on the side every year in muhurrum just to see if anyones dead..

omg we need to be aware of shias, and ur talking about al-kafi, when was the last time u read the sahih hadith books/

its sad that some one like you doesnt have any knowledge and if u did, u wont be chatting shit. so sort it out.. go educate urself..

ok, i am refering to ur ppl as "them" from on as per request of ur "them" brethern. Yes shedding blood of innocents (2 yrs old) babies gettin cut on their head aswell from swords along with the "brave men" shedding blood literally not necessarily leading to death, although i wudnt be surprise if one dies from these acts.

There is no need for personal attacks in the discussion. I am a sinful man, no question about it.

Ok, your right. I certainly dont have ALL the knowledge. Thats why, i prefer to stick to the rightly guided scholars of Al-Islam. For they are the inheritors of prophets below hadith is an important advice from the prophet to every Muslim facing fitnah.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 9.206
Narrated byHudhaifa bin Al Yaman

The people used to ask the Messenger of Allâh sallallâhu ’alayhi wa sallam about the good, but I used to ask him about the evil from fear that it would overtake me,
so I said: O Messenger of Allâh! We used to be in jâhiliyyah (ignorance) and evil, then Allâh brought this good to us, so is there any evil after this good? He said: “Yes.”
I said: And is there any good after that evil?
He said: “Yes, but it will be tainted.”
I asked: What will taint it?
He said: “A people guiding others with other than my Sunnah, you will approve of some (of their actions) and disapprove of others.”
I asked: Then is there any evil after that good?
He said: “Yes! Callers to the Gates of Hell-Fire, whoever responds to them in that will be thrown into it.”
I said: O Messenger of Allâh! Describe them to us.
He said: “They will be from our own people and speak our language.”
I said: What do you order me to do if that should happen in my own lifetime? He said: “Stick to the Jamâ’ah (united body) of the Muslims and their Imâm.”
I said: What if they do not have a united-body nor an Imâm?
He said: “Then keep away from all those sects even if you have to bite upon the root of a tree, until death overtakes you and you are in that state.”

[stolen]

ok, i am refering to ur ppl as "them" from on as per request of ur "them" brethern. Yes shedding blood of innocents (2 yrs old) babies gettin cut on their head aswell from swords along with the "brave men" shedding blood literally not necessarily leading to death, although i wudnt be surprise if one dies from these acts.

There is no need for personal attacks in the discussion. I am a sinful man, no question about it.

Ok, your right. I certainly dont have ALL the knowledge. Thats why, i prefer to stick to the rightly guided scholars of Al-Islam. For they are the inheritors of prophets below hadith is an important advice from the prophet to every Muslim facing fitnah.

Sahih Al-Bukhari Hadith 9.206
Narrated byHudhaifa bin Al Yaman

The people used to ask the Messenger of Allâh sallallâhu ’alayhi wa sallam about the good, but I used to ask him about the evil from fear that it would overtake me,
so I said: O Messenger of Allâh! We used to be in jâhiliyyah (ignorance) and evil, then Allâh brought this good to us, so is there any evil after this good? He said: “Yes.”
I said: And is there any good after that evil?
He said: “Yes, but it will be tainted.”
I asked: What will taint it?
He said: “A people guiding others with other than my Sunnah, you will approve of some (of their actions) and disapprove of others.”
I asked: Then is there any evil after that good?
He said: “Yes! Callers to the Gates of Hell-Fire, whoever responds to them in that will be thrown into it.”
I said: O Messenger of Allâh! Describe them to us.
He said: “They will be from our own people and speak our language.”
I said: What do you order me to do if that should happen in my own lifetime? He said: “Stick to the Jamâ’ah (united body) of the Muslims and their Imâm.”
I said: What if they do not have a united-body nor an Imâm?
He said: “Then keep away from all those sects even if you have to bite upon the root of a tree, until death overtakes you and you are in that state.”

oh so did they actually personally come up to you and say hey look at what im doing and im only two. or did the brave me come and tell u ouch this hurts

so if shias are a sect then does that mean sunnis are a sect too.. oh and what is it that shias believe in..

[TigerStyle786]

oh so did they actually personally come up to you and say hey look at what im doing and im only two. or did the brave me come and tell u ouch this hurts

so if shias are a sect then does that mean sunnis are a sect too.. oh and what is it that shias believe in..

Ok, it doesnt take a rockt science to know that a cut hurts whether ur 2 yrs old 20.

Rafidha shia r amongst the 72, scholars have mentioned it. Some Sunni groups have fallen into 72 due to their deviance, They have their fair share of shirk n bidda' May Allah guide em'

All the newly formed jamats call for ISLAM but when you look at their actions, u see no sign of the way of prophet' for they r too concerned with "RESULTS" abandoning the way of prophet.

[forsaken_fr]

NO thats y they r shias

[PakPlaya69]

O you guys are from the Ahle bayt? eh family of prophet? what about the cursing of wife of prophet Ayesha? calling her that which i can repeat.
u still think ur from the ahley bayt. allright

causing division in ummah' is if "them" were part of the Ummah. Alazhar Uni, yes indeed has produce great aalims in past, i dunno about modern times. It is not what it used to be, since one of their prominent aalims have given approving of suicide boming, which the Scholars of Salafiyya has strongly condemned it. What can you expect from such scholars who fall into extremism. May Allah give them chance to repent n have mercy on them.

Abandoning of salah, was just an example that one leaving fold of islam if his actions oppose tawheed, ie: bowing b4 someone who's ur elder etc etc... Not directed at you, u asked for evidence may be u didnt watch the end of video where ppl were prostrating to the Shrine of Imams. Hey such ppl exist in Sunnis claiming ppl to (sufis) May Allah guide them. U asked for some evidence
of akeeda of shirk in shia texts

"The Imaams have knowledge of whatever occurred in the past and whatever will happen in the future, and nothing is concealed from them." (Al- Kulaini. AL- KAAFI, p.260)

"The person who says that the present Quran is complete is a liar because the “complete Quran” was compiled by Hazrat Ali" (Fasl-ul-khitaab fee tahreef kitaab rab-ul- arbab, page #4, Noori Tibri).

"The Imams posses all the knowledge granted to angels, prophets and messengers." (Al- Kulaini. AL- KAAFI, p.255)

Ok cutting is tradition? knives and chains? ok Well even so such traditional is baatil' as it opposition to the command of prophet that one should not do mOURN more than 3 days after death one a perosn. This is going on for yrs n yrs by "them" such is extremism in religion n why should one cry if they were martyrs cuz they go to janna'. You'd only need to cry if they were not martyrs hehe Scholars of Sunnah par-taking in these mournings in PK?Speech is but this ma'tam, yea one of those self-proclaimed scholars they r. not doubt there r many deviant groups within sunni ppl who have left the fold of "ahle sunnah wal jamma" May Allah guide them. as prophet said it islam will be divided into 73 sects and only 1 on the haqq. May Allah make us amongst them.

Thx, yes May Allah give me a bigger brain,yes Ameen to all these dua's you said, Inshallah.

Again are you too blind to actually read what i am writting. We are not from but are the FOLLOWERS of PROPHET and its AHLeBAI or let me translate"People of the house" menaing Prophets family. Would you like to me actually count them family members out too as i am sure you don know much about them yet you claim to be practicing Prophets sunnah.

Cursing of Hazrat Ayesha, wel true shias will never do that as she s well respected as the wife of Prophet like other wives. Different people take different approaches to certain events in history. (She rose against Maula Ali in the battle of Jamal, i am sure you know it all, and was defeated). She is a well respected figure and anyone who curses her is a sinner.

Again who are you to exclude us from Ummah. You calim to have no authority over judging yet you keep on contridicting yourself by making such foolish statements. So you are saying we forget abt Al Azhr uni, the most prominent Islamic uni to have ever built on face of this earth and produced prominant scholars) has to say but then where do you get your Fatwas from??? ohh ok Osama sounds a good option ey ...

Have you forgotten the Ayyah saying " all your actions are based on your intentions". Bowing down is just gesture of respect used over the centuries by different nations. Bowing down to an object doesn necessarily mean you are worshiping it, it s all about your intentions. Different people show respect in different ways. Bowing down, standing up, kissing the hands are all gestures of showing respect i guess since your mind s so full of hate you fail to see anything else but what you consider shirk.

I will not address any of your evidence in this post as i am fasting at the moment and unlike you i do not trust internet and these narrations that you produced. And according to Us Mushrikeens as you call us, we can not narrate anything thats word of Allah(Koran), word of Pohpet(hadith) if we are not sure about it as it could result it our fast going to watse. Having said that i dont disagree with these as these are part of our believes and we have fair evidence based on Koran and Hadith to prove it.

Mourning and crying for the Great Massacre of Kerbala is a choice. Again you are making it sound like you were there when Prophet said something about mourning lasting for 3 days. and no where in Koran or hadiths it says that you commit a shirk if you keep mourning for more than 3 days. SO please done go on yapping abou everyth8ing becoming a shirk as again you ain no one to judge.

Ameen to all your duas and May Allah forgive you for hurting all the fellow muslim who you consider not to be muslims. May Allah give those muslims strengths to put up with your harsh judgement of their sect or cult or THEM.

[k i s s e s]

is it true that they believe in reincarnation? :sarb:

[Space-Cowboy]

is it true that they believe in reincarnation? :sarb:


So I hear you've agreed to have PakiPlaya's babies.. :think:

[khanbaba_]

is it true that they believe in reincarnation? :sarb:

Well they believe that their Imams will come back to life before the Day of Judgement and punish their enemies, and this belief of theirs is called "Rajat".

Below is the answer by their top Ayat-al-Shaitan Fazal Lankarani:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/khanbaba21/1-7.jpg

[Narcissus]

I think that before you take part in a discussion such as this, you should read these two books:

http://www.amazon.com/Succession-Muhammad-Study-Early-Caliphate/dp/0521646960/ref=sr_1_1/103-4750755-0239034?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190864056&sr=8-1

AND

http://www.al-islam.org/murajaat/

The bottom line is that the Shia opinion is quite legitimate and no credible scholar in the history of Islam has said otherwise regardless of sect.

[PakPlaya69]

Well they believe that their Imams will come back to life before the Day of Judgement and punish their enemies, and this belief of theirs is called "Rajat".

Below is the answer by their top Ayat-al-Shaitan Fazal Lankarani:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/khanbaba21/1-7.jpg


A perfect example of ignorant behviour that this very person represents.

[PakPlaya69]

So I hear you've agreed to have PakiPlaya's babies.. :think:

Yeah she did but she couldn cut the deal on number of kids to produce and exact precedure to go about it. The negotiations are still underway soon you will hear a good news.

[sono_star]

Yeah she did but she couldn cut the deal on number of kids to produce and exact precedure to go about it. The negotiations are still underway soon you will hear a good news.
ur hot...we should get married

[PakPlaya69]

ur hot...we should get married

What makes you think i am not??

[k i s s e s]

So I hear you've agreed to have PakiPlaya's babies.. :think:
um what? who?
Well they believe that their Imams will come back to life before the Day of Judgement and punish their enemies, and this belief of theirs is called "Rajat".

Below is the answer by their top Ayat-al-Shaitan Fazal Lankarani:


mm okay.. thanks. =]

[TigerStyle786]

Again are you too blind to actually read what i am writting. We are not from but are the FOLLOWERS of PROPHET and its AHLeBAI or let me translate"People of the house" menaing Prophets family. Would you like to me actually count them family members out too as i am sure you don know much about them yet you claim to be practicing Prophets sunnah.

Cursing of Hazrat Ayesha, wel true shias will never do that as she s well respected as the wife of Prophet like other wives. Different people take different approaches to certain events in history. (She rose against Maula Ali in the battle of Jamal, i am sure you know it all, and was defeated). She is a well respected figure and anyone who curses her is a sinner.

Again who are you to exclude us from Ummah. You calim to have no authority over judging yet you keep on contridicting yourself by making such foolish statements. So you are saying we forget abt Al Azhr uni, the most prominent Islamic uni to have ever built on face of this earth and produced prominant scholars) has to say but then where do you get your Fatwas from??? ohh ok Osama sounds a good option ey ...

Have you forgotten the Ayyah saying " all your actions are based on your intentions". Bowing down is just gesture of respect used over the centuries by different nations. Bowing down to an object doesn necessarily mean you are worshiping it, it s all about your intentions. Different people show respect in different ways. Bowing down, standing up, kissing the hands are all gestures of showing respect i guess since your mind s so full of hate you fail to see anything else but what you consider shirk.

I will not address any of your evidence in this post as i am fasting at the moment and unlike you i do not trust internet and these narrations that you produced. And according to Us Mushrikeens as you call us, we can not narrate anything thats word of Allah(Koran), word of Pohpet(hadith) if we are not sure about it as it could result it our fast going to watse. Having said that i dont disagree with these as these are part of our believes and we have fair evidence based on Koran and Hadith to prove it.

Mourning and crying for the Great Massacre of Kerbala is a choice. Again you are making it sound like you were there when Prophet said something about mourning lasting for 3 days. and no where in Koran or hadiths it says that you commit a shirk if you keep mourning for more than 3 days. SO please done go on yapping abou everyth8ing becoming a shirk as again you ain no one to judge.

Ameen to all your duas and May Allah forgive you for hurting all the fellow muslim who you consider not to be muslims. May Allah give those muslims strengths to put up with your harsh judgement of their sect or cult or THEM.

yes i know, the Ahle Bait (people of the house of prophet) and his family were upon haqq. We have love for them like we have love for Sahaba. yeA, Ok, great to hear that u respect Ayesha (RA) and hold Shia imams sinners for dishonoring her. Just remember that your going against shia ahadith. (don't tell me ur practising "taqiyya" right in this thread :p cuz that wud be sad

No, We can't rely on scholars who go against the legislation of Allah and go into extremism ie: approving suicide boming, the like of Yusuf Qardawi (considered to be the most prominent Al-Azar scholar) may allah forgive his mistakes.

The most prominet ulema of our times of Salafiyya from whom we get the most authentic rulings are:

Muhammad ibn al Uthaymeen (raheemallah)
Abdul 'Azeez ibn Abdullaah ibn Baaz (raheemallah)
Muhammad Naasiruddeen al-Albaanee (raheemallah)
Saalih bin Al Fawzan (hafidhallah)
Rabee Al-Madkhali (hafidhallah)

as for the man who's name u mentioned The scholars have shown disgust for this man for his fitnah and bloodshed unjustly n issued ruling on Him and his cronies r considered enemies to Islam/Humanity, May Allah give em wot they deserve.

Bowing down before anyone is haram and considered Shirk, islam abolishes baatil practises so if ppl wanna stick to their culture @ expense of leaving islam then such people need to make a choice. My heart is full of hate? :p ok, u got me.

Ashura mourning is a choice for you guys, but for muslims this is not a choice. Mourning for more than 3 days for the dead is HARAM generally. For wife if her husband dies extended time is 4 months 10 days without beating ones face/chest, inflicting pain on self etc etc...,

However it is shirk on part of ur imams who make lawful that which was made unlawful by Allah and his Messenger.

Al-bukhari 2 371, Narrated Zainab bint Abi Salama :
I went to Um Habiba, the wife of Prophet, who said, "I heard the Prophets saying, 'It is not legal for a woman who believes in Allah and the Last Day to mourn for any dead person for more than three days except for her husband, (for whom she should mourn) for four months and ten days'."

The difference between muslims and the group discussed:

‘Adiy ibn Hatim, who was a Christian before accepting Islam, once came to God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings. When he heard him

reciting: They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their priests to be their lords besides Allâh (Qur'aan 9:31)

So he said: "We did not worship our priests." The Messenger said: "Yes, you do. Don't they make the Halal (allowed matters) Haram (disallowed matters) and the Haram Halal, then you follow them?" He answered yes. The Messenger said: "That is worshiping them.

So by obeying their Imams in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allâh, they made them partners of Allâh.

[PakPlaya69]

yes i know, the Ahle Bait (people of the house of prophet) and his family were upon haqq. We have love for them like we have love for Sahaba. yeA, Ok, great to hear that u respect Ayesha (RA) and hold Shia imams sinners for dishonoring her. Just remember that your going against shia ahadith. (don't tell me ur practising "taqiyya" right in this thread :p cuz that wud be sad

No, We can't rely on scholars who go against the legislation of Allah and go into extremism ie: approving suicide boming, the like of Yusuf Qardawi (considered to be the most prominent Al-Azar scholar) may allah forgive his mistakes.

The most prominet ulema of our times of Salafiyya from whom we get the most authentic rulings are:

Muhammad ibn al Uthaymeen (raheemallah)
Abdul 'Azeez ibn Abdullaah ibn Baaz (raheemallah)
Muhammad Naasiruddeen al-Albaanee (raheemallah)
Saalih bin Al Fawzan (hafidhallah)
Rabee Al-Madkhali (hafidhallah)

as for the man who's name u mentioned The scholars have shown disgust for this man for his fitnah and bloodshed unjustly n issued ruling on Him and his cronies r considered enemies to Islam/Humanity, May Allah give em wot they deserve.

Bowing down before anyone is haram and considered Shirk, islam abolishes baatil practises so if ppl wanna stick to their culture @ expense of leaving islam then such people need to make a choice. My heart is full of hate? :p ok, u got me.

Ashura mourning is a choice for you guys, but for muslims this is not a choice. Mourning for more than 3 days for the dead is HARAM generally. For wife if her husband dies extended time is 4 months 10 days without beating ones face/chest, inflicting pain on self etc etc...,

However it is shirk on part of ur imams who make lawful that which was made unlawful by Allah and his Messenger.

Al-bukhari 2 371, Narrated Zainab bint Abi Salama :
I went to Um Habiba, the wife of Prophet, who said, "I heard the Prophets saying, 'It is not legal for a woman who believes in Allah and the Last Day to mourn for any dead person for more than three days except for her husband, (for whom she should mourn) for four months and ten days'."

The difference between muslims and the group discussed:

‘Adiy ibn Hatim, who was a Christian before accepting Islam, once came to God’s Messenger, upon him be peace and blessings. When he heard him

reciting: They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their priests to be their lords besides Allâh (Qur'aan 9:31)

So he said: "We did not worship our priests." The Messenger said: "Yes, you do. Don't they make the Halal (allowed matters) Haram (disallowed matters) and the Haram Halal, then you follow them?" He answered yes. The Messenger said: "That is worshiping them.

So by obeying their Imams in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allâh, they made them partners of Allâh.

I d highly suggest you choose your words wisely cause the Shia Imams you are disrespecting happened to be the grandsons of your beloved PROPHET whos sunnah you love to practice yet you chose to forget his love and respect for his own family i wonder if that comes under BATIIL. Taqqyah and Mutah were widely practiced in prophet and after prophets time. It was only declared forbidden in Hazrat Umars time wonder if we are allowed to amend God's religion.

You ve just proven my point. What ever scholar you mentioned who gave the Fatwa of suicide bombing made a mistake but what are the guarantees the scholars you mentioned wont make a similar or different mistake. They are all humans hence mistake is imminent innit??

If you are talking about Hazrat Ali the forth Caliph you are outa your mind kid. At first i thought you are just a Wahabi educated dumb kid who believes in every he gets told at his local mosque by his pedo Imam but now i am starting to believe you are an absolute idiot for not only ignoring the history of Islam and Hazrat Alis role in it but making accusations based on nothing but false claims. You need help son.

Bowing down is just a gesture you can take it anyway you want it. If my cat bows down to me does that mean i am its God??? Again you hold no such authroity to decide who does or doesnt get to stay in Islamis circle nor does your Wahabi mullahs and yes your heart is full of hate as you fail to acknowledge anything ubt what you ve been brainwashed with and are incapabale understanding anything but what you ve been fed for 20 or so pathetic years of yoiur life.

How you chose to mourn or cry for your loved ones is clearly a choice. Islam only tells you how to go on about it but doesn hold you back form remembering them. The way you do it is your personal choice and even if we go to all those lengths how does justufy you labeling us as non muslim. If its wonrg we will get the sin for it but no way in this worl you can classify as shirk.


Sorry mate we do consider Imama Bukhari as well respected figure but have our own Hadiths books narrated by Prophets family and his true Sahaba. We don need to look else where for confirmation of our believes as it comes directly from the grandsons of PROPHET and their generations hence its authencity cant be disputed.

Yes we obey our imams but lets not forget who they actually are. Its amazing how you keep yapping about Prophets sunnah but fail acknowledge the Prophets love and respect for his family that is a big part of his sunnah. Come o think of it may be we are the real sunnis don you think my wahabi friend??

[illin]

best post in this thread: ali g

[Arshy]

Fake.
Are you back?

[stolen]

Ok, it doesnt take a rockt science to know that a cut hurts whether ur 2 yrs old 20.

Rafidha shia r amongst the 72, scholars have mentioned it. Some Sunni groups have fallen into 72 due to their deviance, They have their fair share of shirk n bidda' May Allah guide em'

All the newly formed jamats call for ISLAM but when you look at their actions, u see no sign of the way of prophet' for they r too concerned with "RESULTS" abandoning the way of prophet.

ok well there are some shias on here.. so why dont u ask them if it hurts, some shia on here must do muthum with something sharp.

well fix yourself before you try putting others down. what is that u know about shias? what is it that shias do? after reading your last post's i see youv'e gone on to copying and pasting quotes about shias from sunni sites, and dont say there not from sunni sites as ive come across these sites before...

have you actually been inside a shia mosque or spoken openly to shias and ask them about their faith and what they do? no i doubt it you are more into hearsay.. you believe what you want, even if its a lie. well good for you..

[stolen]

NO thats y they r shias

urmmm ok,

how old are you 2?

[Areez_UK_HUSTLER]

Im not here to start any anrguments, but I just read an interesting article, which relates to this question I think:

Have a read!!.........:

Subject: The Shia you don't hear about
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:53:53 -0400

The Shia you don't hear about


By ANTHONY MANSUETO


Special to the Star-Telegram


Wednesday marks the Golden Jubilee of His Highness Prince Karim Aga Khan
IV, global leader of the Shia Ismaili Muslim community.

>
>At a time when the news is dominated by sectarian conflicts between Sunni
>and Shia Muslims in Iraq , the jubilee offers an opportunity to learn about
>a very different, little-known but quietly powerful current within Islam.
>
>
>Like the vast majority of Iranians and
>a significant majority of Iraqis, the Ismailis are part of the Shia branch
>of Islam. Shiism emerged from an early dispute about leadership in the
>ummah, or Islamic community.
>
>
>The Sunni argued that the caliph, the successor of the prophet Muhammad,
>should be elected. The Shia argued that succession should remain within
>the direct line of the prophet's closest relatives.
>
>
>But this division also reflected profound differences regarding the nature
>of leadership within the Islamic community. The Sunnis, stressing Islam's
>historic emphasis on effective political engagement, opted for caliphs who
>were primarily political and military leaders; the Shia looked for leaders
>known for wisdom and spirituality.
>
>
>Eventually the Shia themselves divided. The vast majority (those we hear
>most about in Iran and Iraq ) believe there was an unbroken line of 12
>imams -- the last of whom, Muhammad ibn Hasan ibn Ali, was born in 868 and
>was hidden by God in 939 rather than dying. Twelver, or Imami, Shia
>believe that he eventually will return to usher in a reign of justice.
>
>
>The Ismailis trace their own leadership from the seventh imam, Isma'il bin
>Jafar (721-755), and believe that the law, embodied in the Quran and the
>sayings and practices of Muhammad, is accompanied by a mystical teaching
>passed from one imam to the next. The current Aga Khan, who as a
>20-year-old in 1957 succeeded his grandfather, is the 49th hereditary imam
>of the Shia Ismailis.
>
>
>The Ismailis' belief in a deeper, mystical approach to the faith meant
>that they played an important role in the intellectual history not only of
>Islam but also, indirectly, of Europe .
>
>
>Ismailis were crucial in translating the Greek texts of Plato and
>Aristotle, which were lost to Western Europe , into Arabic. It was in this
>language that most were passed on, via Jewish translators in Muslim Spain,
>to Christian Europe.
>
>
>Ibn Sina (980-1037), known in the West as Avicenna, came from an Ismaili
>family. His text on medicine was used not only in the Islamic world but
>also in the West up until the 17th century, and his philosophy profoundly
>influenced that of Thomas Aquinas and thus the whole Roman Catholic
>tradition.
>
>
>Ismailis established the great university of al-Azhar -- one of the
>world's oldest, dating from 971 -- and effectively built the city of
> Cairo , Egypt .
>
>
>Important beneficiaries of Ismaili patronage include the mathematicians
>al-Haytham and Nasir al-Din Tusi and the poet and philosopher Nasir
>e-Khusraw. Although I am not an Ismaili, I have an unusual connection to
>the Ismaili tradition.
>
>
>My family comes originally from Sicily , an island that has known many
>conquerors -- most of them brutal exploiters. But the era of the Ismaili
>Fatimids, who governed Sicily for much of the 10th and 11th centuries from
>their capital at Cairo , was Sicily 's golden age. Agriculture, commerce,
>the arts, the sciences and philosophy flourished.
>
>
>Today, the Ismailis are but a small minority of Muslims, numbering about
>20 million out of roughly 1.4 billion Muslims and 120 million Shia
>worldwide, but their presence continues to be felt.
>
>
>They are concentrated mostly in Central Asia, western China , parts of the
> Middle East , India , Pakistan and sub-Saharan Africa , as well as the United
> States , Canada and Western Europe . They are actively engaged in the
>struggle for social justice and human development.
>
>
>They work locally, through active participation in civic institutions, and
>globally, through the Aga Khan Development Network.
>
>
>The network is involved in an extraordinary range of activities from
>disaster relief, basic
>healthcare, rural development, microfinance and the promotion of private
>enterprise to architecture, culture and the revitalization of historic
>cities.
>
>
>The organization operates more than 200 health centers, including nine
>hospitals, in Afghanistan , India , Kenya , Pakistan and Tanzania .
>
>
>It is at the forefront of disaster relief efforts worldwide, focusing its
>humanitarian efforts on long-term capacity building. The network has been
>involved in microlending for more than 25 years -- long before it became
>popular -- and currently has a
>portfolio of more than $52 million in outstanding loans to more than
>97,000 people in 12 countries. This is in addition to more traditional
>economic development projects involving more than 90 companies employing
>more than 30,000 people and generating more than $1.5 billion in revenue
>annually.
>
>
>The network's education programs encompass more than 300 schools with
>54,000 students across East Africa and South and Central Asia -- most of
>which emphasize education for girls and women and focus on academic rigor
>and leadership development -- as well as two universities: the University
>of Central Asia with campuses in the Kyrgyz Republic , Kazakhstan and
> Tajikistan and the Aga Khan University in Karachi , Pakistan .
>
>
>One project especially dear to me is the Aga Khan Humanities Project,
>which developed an undergraduate humanities curriculum for Central Asian
>universities that tapped into and helped conserve local traditions while
>preparing students to engage a broader intellectual universe.
>
>
>All of the network's hospitals, schools, development projects and
>humanitarian assistance programs are open to people of all faiths and
>origins.
>
>
>The tension between Islam and the West reflects deep-seated economic,
>political and cultural contradictions. But when one looks at the Ismailis
>and understands their history, and their current contributions to human
>development and civilization, it becomes clear that relations between
>Islam and the West cannot be summed up simply as a clash of civilizations.
>
>
>We have learned too much from Islam -- and much of that with the
>assistance of the Ismailis.
>
>
>Islam -- and especially the Ismailis -- has engaged and learned from the
>West. Let us make this century not one of new crusades but rather one of
>dialogue and collaboration in healing and building up our common home, the
>Earth. Let it be the time when we make it a true house of peace.
>
>
>Anthony Mansueto holds a Ph. D. in religion and society from the Graduate
>Theological Union in Berkeley , Calif. He is dean of communications and
>humanities at the Spring Creek Campus of Collin College in Plano .

[stolen]

Im not here to start any anrguments, but I just read an interesting article, which relates to this question I think:

Have a read!!.........:

Subject: The Shia you don't hear about
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:53:53 -0400

The Shia you don't hear about


By ANTHONY MANSUETO


Special to the Star-Telegram


Wednesday marks the Golden Jubilee of His Highness Prince Karim Aga Khan
IV, global leader of the Shia Ismaili Muslim community.

>
>At a time when the news is dominated by sectarian conflicts between Sunni
>and Shia Muslims in Iraq , the jubilee offers an opportunity to learn about
>a very different, little-known but quietly powerful current within Islam.
>
>
>Like the vast majority of Iranians and
>a significant majority of Iraqis, the Ismailis are part of the Shia branch
>of Islam. Shiism emerged from an early dispute about leadership in the
>ummah, or Islamic community.
>
>
>The Sunni argued that the caliph, the successor of the prophet Muhammad,
>should be elected. The Shia argued that succession should remain within
>the direct line of the prophet's closest relatives.
>
>
>But this division also reflected profound differences regarding the nature
>of leadership within the Islamic community. The Sunnis, stressing Islam's
>historic emphasis on effective political engagement, opted for caliphs who
>were primarily political and military leaders; the Shia looked for leaders
>known for wisdom and spirituality.
>
>
>Eventually the Shia themselves divided. The vast majority (those we hear
>most about in Iran and Iraq ) believe there was an unbroken line of 12
>imams -- the last of whom, Muhammad ibn Hasan ibn Ali, was born in 868 and
>was hidden by God in 939 rather than dying. Twelver, or Imami, Shia
>believe that he eventually will return to usher in a reign of justice.
>
>
>The Ismailis trace their own leadership from the seventh imam, Isma'il bin
>Jafar (721-755), and believe that the law, embodied in the Quran and the
>sayings and practices of Muhammad, is accompanied by a mystical teaching
>passed from one imam to the next. The current Aga Khan, who as a
>20-year-old in 1957 succeeded his grandfather, is the 49th hereditary imam
>of the Shia Ismailis.
>
>
>The Ismailis' belief in a deeper, mystical approach to the faith meant
>that they played an important role in the intellectual history not only of
>Islam but also, indirectly, of Europe .
>
>
>Ismailis were crucial in translating the Greek texts of Plato and
>Aristotle, which were lost to Western Europe , into Arabic. It was in this
>language that most were passed on, via Jewish translators in Muslim Spain,
>to Christian Europe.
>
>
>Ibn Sina (980-1037), known in the West as Avicenna, came from an Ismaili
>family. His text on medicine was used not only in the Islamic world but
>also in the West up until the 17th century, and his philosophy profoundly
>influenced that of Thomas Aquinas and thus the whole Roman Catholic
>tradition.
>
>
>Ismailis established the great university of al-Azhar -- one of the
>world's oldest, dating from 971 -- and effectively built the city of
> Cairo , Egypt .
>
>
>Important beneficiaries of Ismaili patronage include the mathematicians
>al-Haytham and Nasir al-Din Tusi and the poet and philosopher Nasir
>e-Khusraw. Although I am not an Ismaili, I have an unusual connection to
>the Ismaili tradition.
>
>
>My family comes originally from Sicily , an island that has known many
>conquerors -- most of them brutal exploiters. But the era of the Ismaili
>Fatimids, who governed Sicily for much of the 10th and 11th centuries from
>their capital at Cairo , was Sicily 's golden age. Agriculture, commerce,
>the arts, the sciences and philosophy flourished.
>
>
>Today, the Ismailis are but a small minority of Muslims, numbering about
>20 million out of roughly 1.4 billion Muslims and 120 million Shia
>worldwide, but their presence continues to be felt.
>
>
>They are concentrated mostly in Central Asia, western China , parts of the
> Middle East , India , Pakistan and sub-Saharan Africa , as well as the United
> States , Canada and Western Europe . They are actively engaged in the
>struggle for social justice and human development.
>
>
>They work locally, through active participation in civic institutions, and
>globally, through the Aga Khan Development Network.
>
>
>The network is involved in an extraordinary range of activities from
>disaster relief, basic
>healthcare, rural development, microfinance and the promotion of private
>enterprise to architecture, culture and the revitalization of historic
>cities.
>
>
>The organization operates more than 200 health centers, including nine
>hospitals, in Afghanistan , India , Kenya , Pakistan and Tanzania .
>
>
>It is at the forefront of disaster relief efforts worldwide, focusing its
>humanitarian efforts on long-term capacity building. The network has been
>involved in microlending for more than 25 years -- long before it became
>popular -- and currently has a
>portfolio of more than $52 million in outstanding loans to more than
>97,000 people in 12 countries. This is in addition to more traditional
>economic development projects involving more than 90 companies employing
>more than 30,000 people and generating more than $1.5 billion in revenue
>annually.
>
>
>The network's education programs encompass more than 300 schools with
>54,000 students across East Africa and South and Central Asia -- most of
>which emphasize education for girls and women and focus on academic rigor
>and leadership development -- as well as two universities: the University
>of Central Asia with campuses in the Kyrgyz Republic , Kazakhstan and
> Tajikistan and the Aga Khan University in Karachi , Pakistan .
>
>
>One project especially dear to me is the Aga Khan Humanities Project,
>which developed an undergraduate humanities curriculum for Central Asian
>universities that tapped into and helped conserve local traditions while
>preparing students to engage a broader intellectual universe.
>
>
>All of the network's hospitals, schools, development projects and
>humanitarian assistance programs are open to people of all faiths and
>origins.
>
>
>The tension between Islam and the West reflects deep-seated economic,
>political and cultural contradictions. But when one looks at the Ismailis
>and understands their history, and their current contributions to human
>development and civilization, it becomes clear that relations between
>Islam and the West cannot be summed up simply as a clash of civilizations.
>
>
>We have learned too much from Islam -- and much of that with the
>assistance of the Ismailis.
>
>
>Islam -- and especially the Ismailis -- has engaged and learned from the
>West. Let us make this century not one of new crusades but rather one of
>dialogue and collaboration in healing and building up our common home, the
>Earth. Let it be the time when we make it a true house of peace.
>
>
>Anthony Mansueto holds a Ph. D. in religion and society from the Graduate
>Theological Union in Berkeley , Calif. He is dean of communications and
>humanities at the Spring Creek Campus of Collin College in Plano .

well ismalis only beieve in 7 imams, where as shias (just shias no other name added to it) believe in all 12 imams..

[Fallen-Angel]

“God made the Prophets appear (on earth) as Givers of Good News (of becoming stable and powerful) and deliverers of Bad news (of destruction and national fall): (Mubashirin wa Munzirin) (2:213), but “Human beings, through revolt among themselves cut themselves up into pieces even after this (superb) knowledge came to them (through Prophets).” (3:19)

“hold on to the rope of God collectively and without exception and do not get dispersed.” (3:103) “those who split up their Programme (Din) and became divided into several sections, thou (O Prophet) are not to include thyself in them in any respect.” (6:159)

'And hold fast, all of you together, to the rope of Allah, and do not separate!'(al imran)

we shouldn't divide outselves and fight over who's a good muslim or which sect is right, there are no sects in Islam, they're all man made, god didnt send down sunnis and shiahs just islam so we should just call ourselves muslims rather than labelling ourselves and others into different sects which obviously god has commanded against, so by doing that you'd be going against gods commands.

peace out

[Areez_UK_HUSTLER]

well ismalis only beieve in 7 imams, where as shias (just shias no other name added to it) believe in all 12 imams..


You really need to read what I posted!!!!


The Ismailis trace their own leadership from the seventh imam, Isma'il bin
Jafar (721-755), and believe that the law, embodied in the Quran and the
sayings and practices of Muhammad, is accompanied by a mystical teaching
passed from one imam to the next. The current Aga Khan, who as a
20-year-old in 1957 succeeded his grandfather, is the 49th hereditary imam
of the Shia Ismailis.

So not 7 Imams.... but 49!!!!!

READ!

[stolen]

You really need to read what I posted!!!!


The Ismailis trace their own leadership from the seventh imam, Isma'il bin
Jafar (721-755), and believe that the law, embodied in the Quran and the
sayings and practices of Muhammad, is accompanied by a mystical teaching
passed from one imam to the next. The current Aga Khan, who as a
20-year-old in 1957 succeeded his grandfather, is the 49th hereditary imam
of the Shia Ismailis.

So not 7 Imams.... but 49!!!!!

READ!

ok il make myself more clear.

what i meant by seven imams is the the imams that are a part of the prophets family

theres 12 imams, they believe in 7 of them.

imam also means leader.. so the rest of the 42 imams are just there chosen leaders

[Areez_UK_HUSTLER]

ok il make myself more clear.

what i meant by seven imams is the the imams that are a part of the prophets family

theres 12 imams, they believe in 7 of them.

imam also means leader.. so the rest of the 42 imams are just there chosen leaders


Im not going to get in to a debate with you cos its a waste of time.... but the article spells out that there is a direct Hireditary line of immath,..... Unbroken, chain of passing on from one family member to the other..... so its not simply "Chosen"..... its a blood line back to Prophet Muhammed (SAS)


Any way!.......... peace!

[sweet_redemption]

sorry but no matter what anyone says, shiite's are not Muslim, end of story. they even pray differently, and basically make up their own laws and rules or islamic moral, conduct and worship. Why they beat themselves I still can't figure that one out.. and these idiots were the ones who killed the 6 month nephew of Prophet Muhammad (SAW)... they deprived him of water than slit his throat. They literally ask Hazrat Ali (r.a) for things in prayer, even though its pretty clear that we cant make dua to anyone but Allah. I hate them... and I know people will say , "lets leave it to Allah to judge"... well there is an authentic hadith which states that out of the 72 sects only one will enter Jannah (and it's not going to be them I can tell you that)

[ilyas@!!oops!!]

sorry but no matter what anyone says, shiite's are not Muslim, end of story. they even pray differently, and basically make up their own laws and rules or islamic moral, conduct and worship. Why they beat themselves I still can't figure that one out.. and these idiots were the ones who killed the 6 month nephew of Prophet Muhammad (SAW)... they deprived him of water than slit his throat. They literally ask Hazrat Ali (r.a) for things in prayer, even though its pretty clear that we cant make dua to anyone but Allah. I hate them... and I know people will say , "lets leave it to Allah to judge"... well there is an authentic hadith which states that out of the 72 sects only one will enter Jannah (and it's not going to be them I can tell you that)

:neutral:

[sweet_redemption]

:neutral:yeah i'm sure no one has anything to say :rolleyes:

[ilyas@!!oops!!]

yeah i'm sure no one has anything to say :rolleyes:


i seen ur pic soo many times on rd! :p :p

[sweet_redemption]

i seen ur pic soo many times on rd! :p :pCONGRADULATIONS :dance3:

[ilyas@!!oops!!]

CONGRADULATIONS :dance3:
:p :p :neutral:

[sweet_redemption]

:p :p :neutral:Righttttt .. i'm guessing you're keyboard isn't working... that's why you're using smilies for everything. :rolleyes:

[TigerStyle786]

I d highly suggest you choose your words wisely cause the Shia Imams you are disrespecting happened to be the grandsons of your beloved PROPHET whos sunnah you love to practice yet you chose to forget his love and respect for his own family i wonder if that comes under BATIIL. Taqqyah and Mutah were widely practiced in prophet and after prophets time. It was only declared forbidden in Hazrat Umars time wonder if we are allowed to amend God's religion.

You ve just proven my point. What ever scholar you mentioned who gave the Fatwa of suicide bombing made a mistake but what are the guarantees the scholars you mentioned wont make a similar or different mistake. They are all humans hence mistake is imminent innit??

If you are talking about Hazrat Ali the forth Caliph you are outa your mind kid. At first i thought you are just a Wahabi educated dumb kid who believes in every he gets told at his local mosque by his pedo Imam but now i am starting to believe you are an absolute idiot for not only ignoring the history of Islam and Hazrat Alis role in it but making accusations based on nothing but false claims. You need help son.

Bowing down is just a gesture you can take it anyway you want it. If my cat bows down to me does that mean i am its God??? Again you hold no such authroity to decide who does or doesnt get to stay in Islamis circle nor does your Wahabi mullahs and yes your heart is full of hate as you fail to acknowledge anything ubt what you ve been brainwashed with and are incapabale understanding anything but what you ve been fed for 20 or so pathetic years of yoiur life.

How you chose to mourn or cry for your loved ones is clearly a choice. Islam only tells you how to go on about it but doesn hold you back form remembering them. The way you do it is your personal choice and even if we go to all those lengths how does justufy you labeling us as non muslim. If its wonrg we will get the sin for it but no way in this worl you can classify as shirk.


Sorry mate we do consider Imama Bukhari as well respected figure but have our own Hadiths books narrated by Prophets family and his true Sahaba. We don need to look else where for confirmation of our believes as it comes directly from the grandsons of PROPHET and their generations hence its authencity cant be disputed.

Yes we obey our imams but lets not forget who they actually are. Its amazing how you keep yapping about Prophets sunnah but fail acknowledge the Prophets love and respect for his family that is a big part of his sunnah. Come o think of it may be we are the real sunnis don you think my wahabi friend??

Ahh I didn't meant to disrespect anyone from "family" of prophet. I was referring to imam, the likes of Khomeini and so forth. And I didn't disrespect, i condemn their slandering against Ayesha and Hafsa (ra)

Taqiyya and Muta'h were made haram while prophet was alive. Your mocking the companion Umar(RA) is a lie. Abrogations were made while prophet was like alcohol was once halal.

It was narrated from ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade mut’ah marriage and the meat of domestic donkeys at the time of Khaybar. According to another report, he forbade mut’ah marriage at the time of Khaybar and he forbade the meat of tame donkeys. (al-Bukhaari, 3979; Muslim, 1407)

Taqiyya is lying deception and its only to be done in emergency in cases if ones life is at stake or war or reconciling between wife n spouse. For a believer prophet said in an authentic hadith: Abdullah Ibn Massoud quotes the prophet as saying: "Maintain truthfulness, for truthfulness leads to righteousness, and righteousness leads to Heaven. A man continues to maintain truthfulness until he is recorded in Allah's book as truthful. Refrain from lying, because lying leads to blatant evil, and evil leads to the fire. A man continues to lie until he is recorded in Allah's book as a liar (related by Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawood and Al-Tirmithi). In another hadith prophet said "he is who deceives is not from amongst us"
May Allah prevent us from lying.

Yes Scholars make mistake and often correct themselves in their life time, If Allah wills. Regarding the status of Raafidhi Shia, it was no mistake for evidence after evidence is piled up against them from the authentic books of shia. So the scholars say, he is ignorant of his beliefs amongst them need be informed and given dawah' as for those who persist in kufr, depart from them, dont sit with them, dont befriend them, don't marry them.

No, Ma'zallah. I can never disrespect Ali (RA) the cousin and companion of prophet. Profanity I was referring to the "man" whose name i didn't wish to take, O___A. No we dont get our fa'tva from this man. U say my heart if full of hatred, yes it is true for the likes of this man.

Ur' right bow-down may not be kufr, ruling regarding such is: if one bows before anyone other than Allah than he DID make "KUFR" but it may be out of ignorence. So to such individuals, one is to ask and tell em to not repeat such a thing. Know that Ahle Sunnah are the people of Mercy and Sabr for they believe in dawah' not labeling ppl kafirs for some people are shia-by-association n not their hearts might not believe in shia doctrine (fitrah)

As for mourning issue is cleared from the hadith and i find that u speak from ur nafs when u say "Islam only tells you how to go on about it but doesn hold you back form remembering them" in effort to support ways of your forefathers. It is not becuz of mourning issue that leads to SHIRK n one to leave fold of islam, rather its their akeeda' regarding the "infallible" imams n their knowledge of "gai'b"; their call for help other than Allah {Ali (RA)} and the belief that the Quran is not complete, and will be complete by the awaited imam.

Quran 2:170 But when they are told, "Follow what God has bestowed from on high," some answer, "Nay, we shall follow [only] that which we found our forefathers believing in and doing." Why, even if their forefathers did not use their reason at all, and were devoid of all guidance?

I never once called "you" kafir, in course of our discussion here, all i did is pass the information from scholars, regarding grave errors the rafidhi shia that has fallen out of islam. It's advice of scholars that a "Muslim" who believes in Allah and the Last day; that they disassociate from such a group, for they are amongst the 72 who invite to the gates of hellfire.

But if ur not convinced' then I will not exchange insults with you or call u names. No, I am not your "WAHHABI" friend, for a man is upon the deen of his friends and i reject your deen: So, I'll follow the advice of the scholars and leave you alone, n make dua that u and the likes of you, find guidance and that he guides me.

[khanbaba_]

Also according to Shias, their Imams are higher/superior than some of the Prophets, and this is a kufar belief and take you outside the fold of Islam.



http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/khanbaba21/2-9.jpg
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i72/khanbaba21/3-9.jpg

[desidancer]

bullshit.


we are all muslims

[nikefc7]

i cant be arsed with this thread its the same old dumb arguments over and over again.

and for the rest of you guys shotuing shia/sunni bhai bhai please shut up, if it was up to me id pass guns over to both of you lot in hope you guys just shoot each other to death and leave the rest of us in peace.

secondly what do you shias get from wasting your time arguing with a bunch of people that think your teaching are wrong based on their fiqh.

[stolen]

Im not going to get in to a debate with you cos its a waste of time.... but the article spells out that there is a direct Hireditary line of immath,..... Unbroken, chain of passing on from one family member to the other..... so its not simply "Chosen"..... its a blood line back to Prophet Muhammed (SAS)


Any way!.......... peace!

im sorry if you think im being rude im not debating with you either

names of the 12 imams

1 Imam Ali Al-Murtatha(as)
2 Imam Hassan Al-Mujtaba(as)
3 Imam Hussein Al-Shaheed(as)
4 Imam Zain Al-Abdeen Al-Shujjad(as)
5 Imam Mohammed Al-Bakir(as)
6 Imam Jaffar Al-Sadiq(as)
7 Imam Musa Al-Kathum(as)
8 Imam Ali Al-Reda(as)
9 Imam Mohammed Al-Jawad(as)
10 Imam Ali Al-Hadi(as)
11 Imam Hassan Al-Askari(as)
12 Imam Mehdi Al-Muntadar(as)

ismailis believe up to the 7th imam, after the 7th imam they follow his eldest son Ismail bin Jafar, where as shias (just shias) who accept Musa al-Kazim, younger brother of Ismail

thats all i meant to say..

[stolen]

sorry but no matter what anyone says, shiite's are not Muslim, end of story. they even pray differently, and basically make up their own laws and rules or islamic moral, conduct and worship. Why they beat themselves I still can't figure that one out.. and these idiots were the ones who killed the 6 month nephew of Prophet Muhammad (SAW)... they deprived him of water than slit his throat. They literally ask Hazrat Ali (r.a) for things in prayer, even though its pretty clear that we cant make dua to anyone but Allah. I hate them... and I know people will say , "lets leave it to Allah to judge"... well there is an authentic hadith which states that out of the 72 sects only one will enter Jannah (and it's not going to be them I can tell you that)

shias pray differently? really how...

shias make up their own laws, now wat law will that be?

worship what? god oh yeah ofcourse

why shias beat themselves? hmm

urm there was no such thing as shias or sunnis in the time of the prophet!!!

name of the the prophets (saw) 6 month old nephew

oh and how do shias ask imam ali (as) for prayers? i dont get that one

[comunistdaght3r]

intense.
really guys, this thread wasn't serious

[Ash_s2002]

intense.
really guys, this thread wasn't serious
lol man beware Khanbaba about

[Narcissus]

sorry but no matter what anyone says, shiite's are not Muslim, end of story. they even pray differently, and basically make up their own laws and rules or islamic moral, conduct and worship. Why they beat themselves I still can't figure that one out.. and these idiots were the ones who killed the 6 month nephew of Prophet Muhammad (SAW)... they deprived him of water than slit his throat. They literally ask Hazrat Ali (r.a) for things in prayer, even though its pretty clear that we cant make dua to anyone but Allah. I hate them... and I know people will say , "lets leave it to Allah to judge"... well there is an authentic hadith which states that out of the 72 sects only one will enter Jannah (and it's not going to be them I can tell you that)

Few questions for you:
Where in the Quran does it say how one should pray?
Who determines what is or isn't Islamic and how do they do it?
Do martyrs die?
Have you ever asked someone to pray for you?
Who killed the grandsons of the prophet?
What is the punishment for falsely labeling someone as a non-muslim?

[sweet_redemption]

shias pray differently? really how...

shias make up their own laws, now wat law will that be?

worship what? god oh yeah ofcourse

why shias beat themselves? hmm

urm there was no such thing as shias or sunnis in the time of the prophet!!!

name of the the prophets (saw) 6 month old nephew

oh and how do shias ask imam ali (as) for prayers? i dont get that one
1) There are thousands, put you're finger to good use and google it
2) Yeah they worship Allah, but when they pray (make dua) they ask Hazrat Ali to answer their prayers... which he cant cuz hes not God
3) Where you asking me or telling me? what kind of answer is "hmm" yeah they beat themselves to replicate the trials of Imam Ali..
4)I don't recall but i'm sure you'll find it amongst all the killing they are currently doing in Iraq (killing Sunni's)
5) If you don't get something, it's called research.... and yeah

EXACTLY MY DAMN POINT, before the death of prophet Muhammad (saw), everyone was SUNNI which means they followed exactly what he said, and he made is pretty clear who would lead everyone after his death.. but NOO they come along declaring Hazrat Ali imam

[sweet_redemption]

Few questions for you:
Where in the Quran does it say how one should pray?
Who determines what is or isn't Islamic and how do they do it?
Do martyrs die?
Have you ever asked someone to pray for you?
Who killed the grandsons of the prophet?
What is the punishment for falsely labeling someone as a non-muslim?
1) The Prophet Muhammad (saw) makes it clear on how to pray.. why do we pray sunnah prayers? becaue he prayed them right? Islam is not only Quran Islam is Sunna.. and whoever doesn't follow the Sunna of the Prophet is not Muslim.
2) They have that idiot president in Iran and hadiths by Hazrat Ali to make their stupid laws.... Allah, the Quran and Sunnah determine what is proper law.
3) Yeah I have.. but Shiite don't ask him to pray FOR them.. they ask him for things directly
4) The Shiite's did.. derf
5) I have a hadith to prove that anyone who makes up things and such are not Muslim. Whoever doesn't follow the Prophets Sunna is not Muslim. and i'm not false about anything... Anyone who prays differently than the Prophet did are not Muslim, end of Story. Now you PROVE to me that they are Muslim

[sweet_redemption]

Also according to Shias, their Imams are higher/superior than some of the Prophets, and this is a kufar belief and take you outside the fold of Islam.

exactly

[animas15]

Dudes Islam is Islam aight! My Mom is a Puerto Rican Shia and my Dad is a Paki Sunni Im a ll messed up! Hahahahaha! I got love for all my muslim and nonmuslim homies! This is what makes Jewish ppl and Christian ppl hate are asses so dayum much, cause we aint united yo! Just love each other man! Its all good! Ice cream for all u dudes on me! :p :grouphug:

[Narcissus]

1) The Prophet Muhammad (saw) makes it clear on how to pray.. why do we pray sunnah prayers? becaue he prayed them right? Islam is not only Quran Islam is Sunna.. and whoever doesn't follow the Sunna of the Prophet is not Muslim.
2) They have that idiot president in Iran and hadiths by Hazrat Ali to make their stupid laws.... Allah, the Quran and Sunnah determine what is proper law.
3) Yeah I have.. but Shiite don't ask him to pray FOR them.. they ask him for things directly
4) The Shiite's did.. derf
5) I have a hadith to prove that anyone who makes up things and such are not Muslim. Whoever doesn't follow the Prophets Sunna is not Muslim. and i'm not false about anything... Anyone who prays differently than the Prophet did are not Muslim, end of Story. Now you PROVE to me that they are Muslim

1)Yes you're right, but there are varying reports of how the Prophet(pbuh) prayed. So which do you believe? Will you place your faith on Bukhari's analysis?

2)Hadrat Ali is one of the most praised figures in Sunni hadith. Why should one not listen to his sayings that have been declared authentic but are not a part of the Sahihs? The point is that even after you read the Quran and decipher the Hadith, there is a certain degree of interpretation involved. That is why even within Sunni Islam there are four major schools of thought that can sometimes have starkly contrasting opinions.

3)No they say "Ali, aid us". As in, since you were martyred and are not dead, you are the most pious man among us so please aid us Ali by interjecting with God.

4)Yazid was officially a Sunni.

5)Your hadith may be authentic, but it doesn't mean that what shia's believe is arbitrary.

6)What if the Prophet did make it clear who should succeed him and it's not the person who you think it was?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_the_pond_of_Khumm

[Narcissus]

Also according to Shias, their Imams are higher/superior than some of the Prophets, and this is a kufar belief and take you outside the fold of Islam.



I think that it would be prudent to actually read the rationale behind something before declaring it incorrect. Especially if your declaration comes from nothing greater than a gut feeling.

[khanbaba_]

Who killed the grandsons of the prophet?
?
Shias of Kufa, as they invited Hazrat Hussain [r.h]. They sent him 17000 letters and then betrayed him. [can be found in major Shia books}

[khanbaba_]

I think that it would be prudent to actually read the rationale behind something before declaring it incorrect. Especially if your declaration comes from nothing greater than a gut feeling.
So you do believe that Imams can be higher than the Prophets?

[Narcissus]

Shias of Kufa, as they invited Hazrat Hussain [r.h]. They sent him 17000 letters and then betrayed him. [can be found in major Shia books}

So you do believe that Imams can be higher than the Prophets?


So what you're saying is essentially the equivalent of: "It's not my fault I killed your guest, you're the one who invited him"

I believe that people should always argue based on reason rather than emotion.

[khanbaba_]

So what you're saying is essentially the equivalent of: "It's not my fault I killed your guest, you're the one who invited him"

I believe that people should always argue based on reason rather than emotion.

So why did those 17000+ cowards invited Hazrat Hussain [r.a] and at the last moment desserted him.

Also the person who struck the blow to Hazrat Hussain was a Shia and fought on the side of Hazrat Ali [r.a] in the battle of Siffin. His name was Shimr bin Jawshan.

They did same thing to Hazrat Zain-ul-Abideen [r.h] when he refused to curse the Shaikhain [first two Caliphs], they left him.

[Narcissus]

So why did those 17000+ cowards invited Hazrat Hussain [r.a] and at the last moment desserted him.

Also the person who struck the blow to Hazrat Hussain was a Shia and fought on the side of Hazrat Ali [r.a] in the battle of Siffin. His name was Shimr bin Jawshan.

They did same thing to Hazrat Zain-ul-Abideen [r.h] when he refused to curse the Shaikhain [first two Caliphs], they left him.

Cowardice is not the same as murder.

Also, as expected, there's another side to what you are proclaiming as a fact:
http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/who_killed_imam_hussain/who_killed_imam_hussain.pdf

I don't want to get into an argument with you over who is right or wrong. That is something that one can dedicate a lifetime to figure out. I'm just hoping you and others will realize that disagreeing with someone does not make their beliefs wrong.

[khanbaba_]

As I mentioned above, the person to struck the final blow was a Shia.

Now EVEN if it was not the case, you do not have to actually wield the sword, or be in an army, to kill someone. You can kill someone by creating the conditions in which his death is inevitable.What else can one say about people who first invited Imam Hussain out to be their leader with a great many letters, then pledged allegiance to him in great numbers at the hand of his representative, and then left him to die at the hands of his enemies when he was in dire need of help?

So it is appropriate to say that the treacherous and cowardly Shia of that time killed Imam Hussain.

[likewoahyo]

HELL NO.
they arnt.
i dont give a shit if they come in here and yell at me.
give me a break there not real muslims along with ismailis wtf ESP NOT ISMAILIS

[likewoahyo]

Few questions for you:
Where in the Quran does it say how one should pray?
Who determines what is or isn't Islamic and how do they do it?
Do martyrs die?
Have you ever asked someone to pray for you?
Who killed the grandsons of the prophet?
What is the punishment for falsely labeling someone as a non-muslim?
lol what a dumbass.
quit using ur big words to act like you know shit.
open the quran its ramadan LEARN something before u talk B.S

[Narcissus]

lol what a dumbass.
quit using ur big words to act like you know shit.
open the quran its ramadan LEARN something before u talk B.S


I'm sorry. . . please forgive me for using such big words like 'determines', 'falsely', and 'what'.

[sweet_redemption]

Cowardice is not the same as murder.

Also, as expected, there's another side to what you are proclaiming as a fact:
http://www.answering-ansar.org/answers/who_killed_imam_hussain/who_killed_imam_hussain.pdf

I don't want to get into an argument with you over who is right or wrong. That is something that one can dedicate a lifetime to figure out. I'm just hoping you and others will realize that disagreeing with someone does not make their beliefs wrong.
Oh really? Would you say the same things about non-Muslims in general. Are you willing to sit here and argue that other faiths take an accord over Islam? Here is the deal, everything in Islam is pretty straight forward, especially the Trimidhi, Bukhari hadiths. Hadiths which shiite use are extremely ambigious. Plus the funny part is, they think only lineage determines who follows After the Prophet, even though Islam makes is pretty clear that in order to be Imam all you have to have is great knowledge in Islam... Prophet Muhammad never said Hazrat Ali was to be Imam, they decided that themselves, according to authentic hadiths he made Abu Bakr Imam. How in the world are they going to deny Abu-Bakr? Also-- Just like Christians are more intuitive about Jesus, Shiite are all about Hazrat Ali, I barely see them use hadiths by the Prophet Muhammad (saw). They devote so much time and effort into devoting themselves to him that they forget about the Prophet. And trust me, how to pray is pretty damn clear, there is no ambiguity in that. One of my friends is unfortunately Shiite and ive seen her pray.. FOR SOME DAMN WEIRD REASON when she wears hijab SHE MAKES SURE TO SHOW SOME PORTION OF HER HAIR IN THE FRONT OF HER HEAD, STICKING OUT HER HIJAB just so she can be distinguised from Sunnis... ARE YOU GOING TO TELL ME THAT COVERING ALL OF OUR HAIR IS ALSO PART OF AMBIGUITY AND IS NOT CLEAR. While we go down in sajdah twice they do it about 6-7 times.

I can go on forever.. and it's these little differences that differ them from the Prophets Sunnah.. and the Prophet has said that those who do not follow him are not Muslim.

[wizious]

Retarded thread.

[sweet_redemption]

Retarded thread.
retarded answer.

[not-now]

who cares ??? theres no such thing as sects in islam,there was no sunni/shia at the time of the prophet and that was the best time for muslims.We are all muslims at the end of the day ! quit dividing yourselves ! no wonder we're so weak theres no unity even in ramadan look at you all fighting amongst yourselves lol non-muslims must all be laughing at you :rolleyes:
why can't u people understand that shia/sunni doesn't matter ?? Anyone who believes in one god and the quran as his word is a muslim !

[sweet_redemption]

who cares ??? theres no such thing as sects in islam,there was no sunni/shia at the time of the prophet and that was the best time for muslims.We are all muslims at the end of the day ! quit dividing yourselves ! no wonder we're so weak theres no unity even in ramadan look at you all fighting amongst yourselves lol non-muslims must all be laughing at you :rolleyes:
why can't u people understand that shia/sunni doesn't matter ?? Anyone who believes in one god and the quran as his word is a muslim !
Pretending there are no sects wont make them dissapear. Plus, one of the signs of Qayama is that the Ummah will be divided and out of 72 there will be only one to enter jannah.. the sect which follows the Prophets Sunna (SUNNI'S).

[Narcissus]

Oh really? Would you say the same things about non-Muslims in general. Are you willing to sit here and argue that other faiths take an accord over Islam? Here is the deal, everything in Islam is pretty straight forward, especially the Trimidhi, Bukhari hadiths. Hadiths which shiite use are extremely ambigious. Plus the funny part is, they think only lineage determines who follows After the Prophet, even though Islam makes is pretty clear that in order to be Imam all you have to have is great knowledge in Islam... Prophet Muhammad never said Hazrat Ali was to be Imam, they decided that themselves, according to authentic hadiths he made Abu Bakr Imam. How in the world are they going to deny Abu-Bakr? Also-- Just like Christians are more intuitive about Jesus, Shiite are all about Hazrat Ali, I barely see them use hadiths by the Prophet Muhammad (saw). They devote so much time and effort into devoting themselves to him that they forget about the Prophet. And trust me, how to pray is pretty damn clear, there is no ambiguity in that. One of my friends is unfortunately Shiite and ive seen her pray.. FOR SOME DAMN WEIRD REASON when she wears hijab SHE MAKES SURE TO SHOW SOME PORTION OF HER HAIR IN THE FRONT OF HER HEAD, STICKING OUT HER HIJAB just so she can be distinguised from Sunnis... ARE YOU GOING TO TELL ME THAT COVERING ALL OF OUR HAIR IS ALSO PART OF AMBIGUITY AND IS NOT CLEAR. While we go down in sajdah twice they do it about 6-7 times.

I can go on forever.. and it's these little differences that differ them from the Prophets Sunnah.. and the Prophet has said that those who do not follow him are not Muslim.

Saying Bukhari and Tirmidhi are straighforward while Shia hadith are not is a poor argument. That's simply your opinion, and it can be argued that your failure to understand something does not imply that it is not valid.

It's ok if you think it just doesn't make sense for leadership to to be hereditary on a rational level, but saying that Islam makes it clear that this is not the case is unfounded. What do you mean by "Islam"? Do you mean the Quran? If so, then who's interpretation of it? Or did God come down to you directly and tell you? If you're referring to a particular hadith, then have you checked the authenticity of the various counter hadith? Have you reconciled your authentic hadith with others that seem to say the opposite? Or are you simply hurling any hadith that supports your preconceived opinion?

The remainder of your arguments are anecdotal. Like I've said, just because something doesn't coincide with what you do or believe, doesn't make it automatically wrong.

[nikefc7]

ok let me just run this quickly through my head again.

so far we got a lady without a hijab teaching me the sunnah of the prophet and a pervert that has literally tried to seduce half the women on here trying to give me lecture on how im a kafir??

sorry but am i the only one who see the irony in this.

:p :p

[nikefc7]

Pretending there are no sects wont make them dissapear. Plus, one of the signs of Qayama is that the Ummah will be divided and out of 72 there will be only one to enter jannah.. the sect which follows the Prophets Sunna (SUNNI'S).

if they followed the sunnah of the prophet then they'd have obeyed his orders on ghadeer-e-khum. clearly they didnt and elected their own chaliph not to mention make up shit loads of hadith to cover it.

so yeah right back at you.

[TigerStyle786]

ahhh, this really got out of hand due to some...

To all the ppl of sunnah: advice is do not speak without knowledge for its one of major sins. It is not necessary to further refute the rafidhi shia group after proofs have been established against them, rather its obligatory to leave em.

As for unnecessary comments and insults exchanged by some people. Its not from the sunnah of prophet to mock the people who have chosen the wrong path. It's not wise to insult them for they are the unfortunate ones, the people of sunnah are the people of mercy for they help the unfortunate ones not insult them.

One should feel sorry for them because as one scholar put it "between them and hellfire is a close distance, unless Allah has chosen to guide them". So make dua for them and leave them.

Quran 73:10 And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity).

I end with ahadith,

The Prophet(SAW) said, (three times), "The Religion is naseeha (sincerity and sincere advice)." We said, "To whom?" He said, "To Allaah, His Book, His Messenger, and to the leaders of the Muslims and the general people."
[Saheeh Muslim No.55]

Scholars have said, if one gets angry or emotional to the people whom they are inviting to the truth, then "sincerity" on part of inviter is in question.

May Allah guide us all.

[xogirlie girlxo]

You know what, none of you will ever understand. This is precisely why the Prophet's sons died. Everyone wants to be a Syed and claim relation to him. Well tough luck. All of u are wrong. Sectism is wrong. You all need to just open ur minds think about the shit u spew.

[not-now]

Pretending there are no sects wont make them dissapear. Plus, one of the signs of Qayama is that the Ummah will be divided and out of 72 there will be only one to enter jannah.. the sect which follows the Prophets Sunna (SUNNI'S).


I'm not pretending they don't exist i'm just saying were all muslims i'm trying to call for unity and yeah the signs are there because god knew we'd become misguided if all muslims had always followed the sunna properly there would never have been be any sects in the first place.

[not-now]

You know what, none of you will ever understand. This is precisely why the Prophet's sons died. Everyone wants to be a Syed and claim relation to him. Well tough luck. All of u are wrong. Sectism is wrong. You all need to just open ur minds think about the shit u spew.


exactly

[sweet_redemption]

ok let me just run this quickly through my head again.

so far we got a lady without a hijab teaching me the sunnah of the prophet and a pervert that has literally tried to seduce half the women on here trying to give me lecture on how im a kafir??

sorry but am i the only one who see the irony in this.

:p :p
You are Kafir... All shiite are.

[not-now]

You are Kafir... All shiite are.

lol u should marry khanbaba :neutral:

[sweet_redemption]

lol u should marry khanbaba :neutral:
why? Just because we agree with each other? Trust me, there are millions who know shiite are not Muslim. I'm not the only one.

[baliwala]

You know what, none of you will ever understand. This is precisely why the Prophet's sons died. Everyone wants to be a Syed and claim relation to him. Well tough luck. All of u are wrong. Sectism is wrong. You all need to just open ur minds think about the shit u spew.
:werd:

[sweet_redemption]

You know what, none of you will ever understand. This is precisely why the Prophet's sons died. Everyone wants to be a Syed and claim relation to him. Well tough luck. All of u are wrong. Sectism is wrong. You all need to just open ur minds think about the shit u spew.
No one is trying to be a Syed. It's just hard for Shiite and some of their Sunni Advocates to accept the truth. No one spewing shit, I for one, am trying to remove the shit from associating themselves to Muslims. SUNNI are the only Muslims.

[nyc_craziest]

They have next level beliefs.

astagfirullah.

[nikefc7]

You are Kafir... All shiite are.

please shut up.

[sweet_redemption]

They have next level beliefs.

astagfirullah.
They have false and made up beliefs

[sweet_redemption]

please shut up.
Sorry, that's not happening.

[nyc_craziest]

They have false and made up beliefs
thats what i said. not in the exact words though.

[nikefc7]

Sorry, that's not happening.

then alternatively go educate yourself.

cause quite frankly all ive heard from you is mindless accusations mimmicking that of an arrogant pompous wahabbi mulla.

pick up peshawar nights and half your questions would be answered!
but no we'd rather speek our of our arse.

[nyc_craziest]

^ he`s got a point.

research before assuming or translating the hadith in your own words!!

[stolen]

You are Kafir... All shiite are.

your one to talk..

all uve been saying is the hadith says this and the hadith says that, shias do this and shias do that, uve not really backed ur argument or come out with any facts, i already questioned you on ur last post and all u said was google it, well i was only questioning u on what u had said so it should have been easy for u to answer my question.

and calling him or all shias a kafir, yeah u should know i mean hearsay is really good for knowledge, u dont really know much about shias, ur last few posts proved it, so no point on u judging anyone as ur argument is basless.

[nikefc7]

and also dont base your facts on hadiths from bukhari and muslim which have no relevance to me.

[ancient_warrior]

First of all, I am not muslim so I will give U guys a objective view on this topic.

Currently, I am taking a Islam class at 600 level. Shias, sunnis, sufis are all considered muslim. Our teacher is an academic scholar, she is very old and wise and also very objective.

I would take her word over anyone on here.

Personally, I have some arab friends all of which are sunni and some Iranian people that are shia. Both seem cool.

Maybe it's desi muslims that are being fanatic with their corrupted views abt this subject.

[baliwala]

First of all, I am not muslim so I will give U guys a objective view on this topic.

Currently, I am taking a Islam class at 600 level. Shias, sunnis, sufis are all considered muslim. Our teacher is an academic scholar, she is very old and wise and also very objective.

I would take her word over anyone on here.

Personally, I have some arab friends all of which are sunni and some Iranian people that are shia. Both seem cool.

Maybe it's desi muslims that are being fanatic with their corrupted views abt this subject.
dude have u been watching the news? sunnis and shias are slaughtering each other in iraq.. they have been for years

[ancient_warrior]

First of all, I am not muslim so I will give U guys a objective view on this topic.

Currently, I am taking a Islam class at 600 level. Shias, sunnis, sufis are all considered muslim. Our teacher is an academic scholar, she is very old and wise and also very objective.

I would take her word over anyone on here.

Personally, I have some arab friends all of which are sunni and some Iranian people that are shia. Both seem cool.

Maybe it's desi muslims that are being fanatic with their corrupted views abt this subject.
dude have u been watching the news? sunnis and shias are slaughtering each other in iraq.. they have been for years

There are also many tribes killing each other. Many religions also killing each other. World is a harsh place driven by materialistic desires not religion.

It's politics, man.

[baliwala]

There are also many tribes killing each other. Many religions also killing each other. World is a harsh place driven by materialistic desires not religion.

It's politics, man.
exactly.. thats what it all boils down to

[not-now]

why? Just because we agree with each other? Trust me, there are millions who know shiite are not Muslim. I'm not the only one.


that's unfortunately true but like others have previously posted sects are wrong in islam .Look i'm sunni but we can't judge who is muslim and who's not only god knows regardless of sect to me a muslim is a muslim .C'mon muslims are in a pathetic state we don't need to fight amongst ourselves too.

[TigerStyle786]

All this talk about unity? What is Unity in Islam? The Sheikh explains in a video in what cases muslims can unite and what are conditions of unity in islam?

rXI8MFzE3cw
and where shias went wrong
T83e59dB-ps

[laeRsImanE]

that's unfortunately true but like others have previously posted sects are wrong in islam .Look i'm sunni but we can't judge who is muslim and who's not only god knows regardless of sect to me a muslim is a muslim .C'mon muslims are in a pathetic state we don't need to fight amongst ourselves too.

I think some of us are just misled into believing they aren't really muslims when they really are.

I don't think muslims are in a pathetic state, it's just another phase us Muslims have to go through and surpass.

[sweet_redemption]

then alternatively go educate yourself.

cause quite frankly all ive heard from you is mindless accusations mimmicking that of an arrogant pompous wahabbi mulla.

pick up peshawar nights and half your questions would be answered!
but no we'd rather speek our of our arse.
Peshawar nights my ass. I read that retarted thing, it was full of ridiculous non-sensical things which the author actually thought made sense

[sweet_redemption]

Nabi mentioned in the Hadith a period which will dawn upon the Ummah wherein holding firm to Iman (for the people of that period) will grasping burning coal. Without doubt the words of Nabi have proved to be true and we find our Iman under attack from all sides. One such attack has been launched by the Shi’ah in the disguise of, “The call of unity”, which has left a staggering question in many a minds; “Why do the Ahlus Sunnah not accept this incitation to unite?” The answer is simple: Only when the fundamental beliefs of two parties are similar can a common tent of unity be erected. The Qur’an clearly states:

http://www.kr-hcy.com/Images/Shi'iteD4.jpeg

“They wish that you should compromise (in religion out of courtesy) with them so they too would compromise with you. And obey not every such worthless person who swears much.”
Under no circumstances should the people of Iman compromise on the aspects of their religion. If the pillars of a structure are tampered with, it is bound to bring destruction. Similarly, when the fundamental beliefs of our religion are compromised, then Islam and its pureness will be washed away. This booklet is the translation of a lecture delivered by Moulana Dhiaurrahman Faruqi (Rahimahullah) which outlines the differences between the Ahlus Sunnah and the Shi’ah. It also depicts a clear picture of how it is impossible for the two to unite. This book also proves that the Shi’ah do not belong to the Muslim brotherhood. But rather, they are from amongst the enemies of Allah and Allah commands us thus:

” O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies as friends…” I pray to Allah that He makes this booklet a means of guidance for the entire Ummah. May He also greatly reward all those who assisted in making this publication possible. Ameen.
09 Jumadal Ukhra 1420 19 September 1999

This is a lecture delivered on 6 October 1991 in Multan by Moulana Zia-ur-Rehman Farooqui (Shaheed) Rahimahullah

THE VERDICTS OF THE ULAMA REGARDING THE SHI’AH

The verdicts passed by the Ulama regarding the Kufr of the Shi’ah are neither foreign nor strange. Moulana Haq Nawaz (Rahimahullah) had very boldly announced the Kufr of the Shi’ah form every possible platform and stage and he backed his claim with extremely weighty proofs. He had not undertaken a new task by regarding the Shi’ah to be Kuffar. The kufr of the Shi’ah is proven in the Qur’an. Imam Malik (Rahimahullah) has clearly counted the Shi’ah amongst the Kuffar substances it with the Ayah:

http://www.kr-hcy.com/Images/Shi'iteD8.jpeg

“… that He may burn through them the hearts of the disbelievers
Similarly Shaikh Abdul Qadir Jaiani (Rahimahullah) in his book, Ghuniyatut Talibin, has announced the Kufr of the Shi’ah. Imam Ahmad bin Hambal (Rahimahullah) has not only announced their Kufr but went as far as saying that the Taubah (Repentance) of the Shi’ah cannot be accepted. It is known that the Taubah of a Jew and Christian is acceptable, but according to him, the Shi’ah is such a Kafir that his Taubah cannot be accepted. Shaikhul Islam Imam Ibn Taimiyah (Rahimahullah) in his unparalleled book, Minhajus Sunnah - which was written as a reply to a Shi’ah - indicated towards the Kufr of the Shi’ah. However in his other work, As-Sarimul Maslul Ala Shatimir-Rasul, he has explicitly mentioned the Kufr, Irtidad and Nifaq of the Shi’ah. We also find the following words of Imam Malik, Ahmad bin Hambal and Abu Hanigah Rahimahumullah recorded:

http://www.kr-hcy.com/Images/Shi'iteD9.jpeg

“He who denies the Suhbah (Companionship) of Abubakr ( with the Prophet) is a Kafir.” After listening to all these opinions of the Ulama one should not hesitate in regarding the Shi’ah to be Kuffar. Some people argue the fact that Imam Abu Qiblah (a person who turns towards the Qiblah of Islam when praying- a Muslim) as a Kafir. Such people do not realize what is meant by these Ahlul Qiblah. If a person says that by Ahlul Qiblah are meant all those who face the Ka’bah in prayers, then the question arises: Which Qiblah did Abu Jahl and Abu Lanhab follow? When Abu Jahl and Abu Lanhab also followed the same Qiblah and made Tawaf of the same Ka’bah, then they should also be regarded as Muslims. Therefore, being from Ahlul Qiblah does not necessarily mean being a Muslim, rather it refers to those people who Ibnu Taimiyah had mentioned in his definition:

” The Ahlul Qiblah are those who are concurrent with the necessities of Deen.” On the other hand the Shi’ah are such Kuffar who deny the necessities of Deen. Following in the footsteps of Ibn Taimiyah was the great figure and personality of Mujaddid Alfe Thani (Rahimahullah). He clearly announced the Kufr of the Shi’ah in his book viz; Raddur Rifdhah.

WHY ARE THE SHI’IAH KUFFAR ? THE FIRST REASON

Shah Waliullah (Rahimahullah) in his book, Izalatul Khifa, in 12 occasions passed the judgment of Kufr against the Shi’ah and counted them amongst the rejecters of Khatmun Nubuwwah. In his lat will he made the bequest that the Shi’ah should never be regarded as Muslims because they are deniars of Khatmun Nubuwwah. A dream of his is mentioned in the Kitab, Fuyoozul Haramain, wherein he says: “I saw Nabi in a dream. I asked him: “O Rasulullah ! What is your opinion with the regard of the Shi’ah?” Rasulullah replied: “To understand the position of the Shi’ah (in Islam) a study of their beliefs in Imamah is sufficient.” He further says: “On the following day I once again studied the Shi’i belief with regard to Imamah and came to the conclusion that the Shi’ah are the greatest opponents and deniers of the Khatmun Nubuwwah..” Now it is left upon us to decide whether we regard a person who denies Khatmun Nubuwwah to be a Mu’min or not?

THE SECOND REASON

If we further study we will find even more intense and severe reasons for regarding the Shi’ah to be Kuffar, like the doctrine of Bada, the belief of Raj’ah etc. However, there is one such belief that can never be denied. It is the duty of every Muslim to unveil this Kufr of the Shi’ah and remove the cover of Taqiyyah. This belief is none other than their belief in the alteration of the Qur’an. They claim that they present Qur’an was altered on behalf of the drunk Khulafa (referring to Abubakr, Umar and Uthman r.z).
Allah mentioned in Ayah of the Qur’an: (Surah 12, Verse 49)

“Then thereafter will come a year in which people will have abundant rain and in which they will press (wine and oil).” Maqbool Delawi writes this Ayah in his Tafir and says the word

http://www.kr-hcy.com/Images/Shi'iteD11b.jpeg

originally ought to be read as

http://www.kr-hcy.com/Images/Shi'iteD11c.jpeg

Using this word of the Qur’an Dehlawi writes that the Qur’an was tampered with due to the drunk Khulafa. This is recorded in his translation of the Qur’an. Another Shi’i scholar says in his translation of the Qur’an that the word

http://www.kr-hcy.com/Images/Shi'iteD12a.jpeg

in the following verse of the Qur’an:

” Verily we have revealed the Thikr (Qur’an) and surely We will guard it (from corruption),” does not refer to the Qur’an. In fact it refers to Rasulullah . He interprets this verse in two ways:

1) If it refers to Rasulullah , then it means that Allah sent him down and protected him from being assassinated.
2) If it does refer to the Qur’an, then this does not necessitate the protection of every single copy of the Qur’an is in the possession of Ali. Similarly Muhammad bin Ya’qoob Kulanini in his book Usuluh Kafi* (This id one of the most authentic Shi’ah books. Just as the Muslims have 6 authentic books of Hadith, the Shi’ah have 4 such books which are called Usulul Arba’ah or Sihah Arba’ah. They are :
1) Al Jamiul Kafi which is divided into three parts; a) Usulul Kafi in 2 volumes. This mentions the Shi’i beliefs b) Furoo’ul Kafi in 5 volumes. book deals with the Masail (laws of Fiqh) and c) Raudhatul Kafi in 1 volume. This book mentions the lives of their A’immah. Al Jamiul Kafi enjoys the very same status as Shahihul Bukhari. The second book of the Shi’ah Arba’ah is Tahthibul Ahkam. The third is Al Istibsar and the fourth is Manla Yahdhuruhul Faqiah. Besides these 4 books, some Shi’ah may be accepting some books whilst rejecting others. Nevertheless these are such authentic books of that these books be studied. All the different Shi’ah sects also accept these books to be the most authentic.) says that the present Qur’an is an altered version of the original Qur’an which consist of 17,000 verses. It is a known fact that the present Qur’an only contains 6,666 verses. From this it is clarified that the difference with the Shi’ah is not merely based on their referring to Abubakr and Umar as Kafir. In fact, one of the fundamental differences is the rejection of the present Qur’an. They regard it to be incomplete. The footnotes of these books clearly mention that the Qur’an was tampered with by the drunkards viz. Abubakr, Umar and Uthman and it contains no reality and essence. If the Shi’ah are asked that if this position of the Qur’an in your opinion, then why do you recite it? Maqbool Delawi replies: “We are compelled to do this by the order of the Imam. The Imam had instructed that we should hold onto this “incorrect” Qur’an until we receive the original copy.”

THE THIRD REASON

The third reason for the Shi’ah being kuffar is that they believe the status of their 12 A’immah to be higher than that of every single Nabi. This belief of theirs is mentioned in their foundational book, Usoolul Kafi. It is mentioned therein in the Chapter “Kitabur Risalah” that the status of Muhammad and the remaining Ambiya is lesser than that of the 12 A’immah. These are beliefs of the Shi’ah which are mentioned in their most authentic books which cannot be denied by them. Khomeini in his book, Al-Hukumatul Islamiah, says that the 124,000 Ambiya could not attain the status which their 12 A’immah have attained. In this belief of theirs, the Shi’ah are in reality negating Khatmun Nubuwwah ( finality of the prophet hood of Muhammad .

THE FOURTH REASON

The fourth reason for regarding the Shi’ah to be Kuffar is that they have counted Abubakr and Umar (and the rest of the Sahabah (r.z) as renegades. Muhammad bin Ya’qoob Kulanini explicitly writes in his book Usoolul Kafi that Abubakr and Umar never recited the Kalimah sincerely. They are Kuffar and inhabitants of Hell! After bolding such a belief, can the Shi’ah ever be regarded as Muslims? Usoolul Kafi also records the belief that a great number of the Sahabah of the Prophet did not accept the faith of Islam sincerely with the exception of four Sahabah who are: 1) Ammar bin Yasir 2) Miqdad bin Aswad 3) Salman Farsi 5)Abu Dhar Ghifari (r.z).
Besides these the rest of the Sahabah accepted Islam hypocritically in the greed for power. In this book Kashful Asrar, with extreme audacity and courage, Khomeini has written that Umar was an outright Kafir and infidel! Such is the Kufr that is blurted against that very companion of the Prophet concerning whom Rasulullah said :

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“Had there been a prophet to come after me, it would have been Umar.”

Maqbool Dehlawi writes in his Tafir that Allah has used the words :

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in the Qur’an which means that “Shaytan said…”
He says that these words wherever they appear, refers to Umar bin Khattab. At another place in Kashful Asrar Khomeini writes that Abubakr, Umar, Uthman and Abu Ubaidah attached themselves to the Prophet for the sole reason of attaining power and leadership. Had they been promised the throne of power by falsifying the Prophet , they would have verily falsified him. He also wrote that Abubakr and Umar and those who were with them merely connected themselves to Rasulullah in hope of leadership but their hearts were completely distant form him! At another place in the same book Khomeini wrote another statement of Kufr. He says, “I do not accept that being to be Allah who gave the Khilafah to such immoral persons like Uthman and Mu’awiyah”. That very Uthman who was the son in law of Rasulullah ! The very Uthman whom Rasulullah gave his daughter to ! When, the first daughter passed away, then Rasulullah gave his second daughter. When she also passed away, then Rasulullah said: “O Uthman! if I had any more daughter, I would have given them in your marriage”. O Muslims! That Uthman who before the advent of Islam never consumed liquor, never swore any of his enemies and so was mercilessly martyred, is called a Kafir! (today after 1420 years.)

THE BELIEF OF RAJ’AH

Another Shi’i scholar, Mulla Baqir Majlisi, writes in his book, Haqqul Yaqeen, concerning the belief of Raj’ah. Raj’ah is that belief of the Shi’ah wherein they claim that whenever the Imam wishes he can bring any person back to life. Under this chapter he writes that when the Mahdi appears, then he will make Tawaf of the Ka’bah. After making Tawaf, he will leave for Madinah. Standing in front of the Raudhah (grave) of the Prophet, he will ask the two graves which are situated next to Rasulullah’s grave. The people will reply: “These are the graves of Abubakr and Umar”. The Imam will ask : “Who buried them beside the Prophet ? The people replied: “They were buried here because they were the close and special companions of the Prophet .” The Imam will advance and demolish the walls of the Raudah. He will then dig the graves of Abubakr and Umar, exhume their bodies and bring them back to life. He will then address them saying: “O Abubakr and Umar! Every sin of adultery, consumption of liquor and immorality that was committed on earth until this day, was because of the two of you! Had you given Ali his rights, none of these sins would have occurred!” Upon this Abubakr and Umar will plead for forgiveness but the Imam will strip Abubakr and Umar of their Kafin, hang them on the gallows of Madinah and last them. This punishment will continue until the day of Qiyamah! O Muslims! Can we remain silent after such blatant lies of Kufr are uttered? This literature is not being published against any person’s mother, father or brother. It is being published against that Siddiq who was appointed by the Prophet as his substitute on the Musalla (prayer mat)! O people! let us ask ourselves: Does our Imam permit us to remain silent after so much of Kufr has been exposed to us? The accursed Shi’ah author, Ghulam Husain Najfi, wrote a book viz, Tuhfah Hanafiyah. By the oath of Allah, such Kufr has been written in this book which is not ever, worth of being mentioned. In this book he has debased and sworn the Sahabah. He has abused their mothers and sisters. He has written that a person who writes the names of Abubakr, Umar and Uthman on his private part will be deserving of great rewards!

THE BELIEF OF TAQIYYAH

To futher propagate their religion the Shi’ah veil themselves behind the sheets of Taqiyyah (holy hypocrisy) and go about claiming to be Muslims. When they are asked about their rejection of Abubakr and Umar (r.z) then they curb the topic by saying that we do accept them (their status) but after that of Ali. A question is many times posed that what is the reason that many years back the Shi’ah participated in all such gatherings and conferences which were arranged by the Ahlus Sunnah and today they are being branded as Kuffar? Previously the Shi’ah and the Ahlus Sunnah worked together against any opposition party and today they have become Kuffar? The slogan of ‘KAFIR KAFIR, SHI’AH KAFIR’ was never heard before. Today it is being heard all over, what is the reason for this discord and disunity? To understand the answer we should remember one point. Usoolul Kafi which is the fundamental Shi’ah book for records a (fabricated) narration. Mullah Baqir Majlisi writes: “Imam Ja’far Sadiq has mentioned that the Ameerul Mumineen (Ali r.z) has said that let every Shi’ah follower of mine hear my (following) bequest: “He who conceals his religion will be granted respect by Allah and he who disclose it will be humiliated.” So the Shi’ah have been practicing upon this advice for the past 1,410 years. All their fundamental beliefs were recorded in book such as Usoolul Kafi etc. These books were not printed of published. Only the original scripts exists and these were safely stored. In this way the beliefs and ideas of the Shi’ah were kept a secret. If the secrets of the Shi’ah were brought to the surface and exposed from the very beginning, then they would never enjoyed the title of being “Muslims” in any era under the ruler ship of any Muslim empire. They would have been holding that very reputation of Kufr which the Christians, Jews and Hindus hold today. The doctrine of Taqiyyah has been flashed out very beautifully so as to encourage mankind to practice upon it. It is mentioned in the Shi’ah books:

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” He who does not practice Taqiyyah is not a true believer!” In other words a person will be highly rewarded for speaking such lies (according to Shi’ah religion) because speaking such lies (practicing upon Taqiyyah) is highly commendable. This was clearly attested to by their leader Khomeini when in came into power in 1979. A book containing 700 of his speeches has been published and in the 3rd speech he has mentioned: “It was the claim of the Imam that he who concealed his religion would be granted respect and he who exposed it would be disgraced. However, Allah has granted me such position and power today which was never enjoyed by Shi’ah before. Therefore I have abrogated the law and order of the A’immah. It is my order today that the Shi’ah should proclaim and announce their religion because lies in this.” It is for this reason that all those books which were veiled behind the curtains of Taqiyyah were now published in large numbers and in numerous languages and freely distributed in the Republic of Iran. When these books reached the corners of the world and crossed the eyes of the Ulama, then the reality and true colors of Khomeini and Shi’ism became manifest. Some of the many false beliefs of the Shi’ah which are recorded in these books are: a) Allah speaks lies.
b) The Prophet departed from this world unsuccessful.
c) He (the Prophet ) will pledge allegiance to the (naked) Mahdi.
d) A’ishah had committed adultery whilst married to the Prophet .
e) Abubakr and Umar will be hanged on the gallows of Madinah and,
f) Abubakr and Umar and Uthman were Kuffar and immortal people.
After learning these beliefs and many others the Ulama begin announcing the Kufr of Khomeini and the Shi’ah. Books were published from Egypt, Lebanon, India, Pakistan and all over the world condemning Khomeini and exposing his Kufr. From the above we have learnt that Khomeini was the first person to have exposed and ordered the exposure of the Shi’ah religion and its Kufr.

THE SHI’AH HISTORICALLY

If we scrutinize the Shi’ah from a historical angle as well, we will not find a single era which was free of their mischief. For example,
1. In the first era of Islam, they had a hand in the assassination of Umar, Uthman and Husain Radiallahu anhum.
2. Going further into the 8th century, who were the traitors to Salahuddin Ayyubi? Salahuddin was fighting against the Christians and the Shi’ah weaved into the opposition party against him.
3. Who was Ibnul Alkami? He invited foreign forces to Baghdad to overthrow the Muslims government.
4.When Ibn Taimiyah opposed the Tartars, then who supported them?
5. Who opposed Sultan Tipu when he came into the battlefield?
6. Leaving aside all these historic events, let us see the Mujahideen of Afghanistan. They were on the verge of conquering Kabul on two occasions when the Shi’ah became an obstruction and prevented those from taking place. The Shi’ah hold the same opinion as the Americans regarding the Mujahideen. After losing the blood of 150,000 Mujahideen, the Iranian like the Americans encouraged reconciliation with Zahir Shah. In other words they encouraged wastage of the precious blood of 150,000 Mujahideen.

THE AHLUS SUNNAH AND ALI (R.Z)

We find that the Shi’ah claim Ali (r.z). Hasan (r.z) and Husain (r.z) to be their A’immah. Fatimah (r.z) is a highly respectable figure amongst them. None amongst the Ahlus Sunnah has ever debased or written any filth against anyone of those great respectable personalities. However, when the Ahlus Sunnah regard Abubakr (r.z) as their pride and honor, then we find that Shi’ah have written 360 books condemning him and the rest of the Sahabah (r.z).

THE SHI’AH AND ABUBAKR (R.Z)

The Shi’ah have written a book named Shaikh Thaqifah. This book was published in Karachi. The title of this book is Abubakr and there is the picture of a dog at the bottom. O people! No one ever depicts us in such disgusting ways but the Khalifah of the Prophet is abused in such way that under his name the photo of a dog is placed? O people! what answer will you give on the day of Qiyamah if Abubakr complains to the Prophet saying: “I has sacrificed all my wealth for you, I had given my daughter in your marriage but such an era has come in the world when my name written with the picture of a dog and the Ummah was asleep?

RUQAYYAH AND UTHMAN (R.Z)

Ghulam Husain Najfi has written a book wherein he has defamed the character of the daughter of the Prophet . He has written that after the demise of the Prophet’s daughter Raqayyah, Uthman had intercourse with her. Such filth will never be tolerated even against any enemy and there it is being mentioned regarding the son in law and daughter of the Prophet !

ANNOUNCING THE SHI’I KUFR

When the media of Iran announces Abubakr and Umar to be Kuffar, when it announces Uthman to be an immortal person then why is it that no Muslim state replies to this? Had we been in possession of such means we would have definitely replied to them. We are compelled to come out onto the roads and streets to fulfill this duty. It was on the basis of the fulfillment of this very duty that the children of our leader (Haq Nawaz Rahimahullah were made orphans, his wife a widow and himself descended the depths of the grave at such a young age. I have faith that just as he left the world I will also definitely leave the world some day. I also knew that my life is never more exalted than that of Abubakr. I am prepared to tolerate all sorts of punishments whilst disclosing and announcing the Shi’ah Kufr but I will never tolerate the defamation of the character of the Sahabah. Either I will remain on this earth or the enemy will prevail!

MOULANA HAQ NAWAZ RAHIMAHULLAH

When this book (the title of which had the picture of a dog under the name of Abubakr r.z
) was published and it reached the hands of Moulana Haw Nawaz, he studied it and kept weeping the whole night. The following day he announced in a gathering saying: “O Allah! send your curses upon Haq Nawaz if after the publication of this book he sleeps peacefully.” Why is it that Haq Nawaz was taken to task, why was he rebuked and taunted when he announced the Kufr of the Shi’ah? He did not make nay of these claims from his own side. He did not fabricated any of the basis of that Kufr which is recorded in their own books. Similarly in who after learning the above mentioned beliefs counted the Shi’ah amongst amongst Muslims. What is the reason that people spend all their efforts in fighting for issues relating to this world but when Abubakr is abused, the daughter of the Prophet are abused then not a single hair on the body stands?

THE SIPAHE SAHABAH

The Sipahe Sahabah has vowed to fight and combat all such kufr and literature which is being published. The fight of the Sipahe Sahabah is not based on any greed for status of political power. The Sipahe Sahabah has realized its religious duty and obligation of raising the voice of truth from every possible avenue against the filthy literature and words used against the noble personalities of the Sahabah. The Sipahe Sahabah will keep on fulfilling this task and, Insha Allah soon a time come when all such Kufr will be eradicated from the surface of this earth. Amin.

THE PURPOSE AND OBJECT OF SIPAHE SAHABAH

* To propagate the oneness of Allah and to protect the finality of prophet hood of Nabi .
* To utilize all efforts and strength for the promotion of the Khilafaur Rashidah (the Khilafah of the righteous of Nabi .)
* To make every possible effort for the protection of the honor of the Sahabah (r.z).
* To enlighten the forthcoming generation with regard to the Sahabah (r.z), the Khulafa ar-Rashideen, the Ahlus-Bait and the rest pf the pious personalities of Islam.
*To endeavor and strive for the protection is Islam and for the service of society.
*To take part in those efforts which are related to the rectification and upliftment of the society and public welfare.

DEMANDS OF THE SIPAHE SAHABAH

* To honor the sanctity of the Sahabah and the Ahlus Bait (r.z). Laws should be enacted to protect their honor.
* The institution of the Khilafatur Rashidah.
* The death sentence be imposed against those who accuse the Sahabah (r.z) and the Ahlul Bait of infidelity.
* All types of curses, absurdities and blasphemies against the Sahabah (r.z), be it in writing or verbal, banned completely.
*The gatherings of the Shi’ah wherein they mourn and lament, be restricted to their places of worship.
*Withdrawal of all the illegal cases and accusations made against numerous members of the Sipahe Sahabah.

[desidancer]

that's unfortunately true but like others have previously posted sects are wrong in islam .Look i'm sunni but we can't judge who is muslim and who's not only god knows regardless of sect to me a muslim is a muslim .C'mon muslims are in a pathetic state we don't need to fight amongst ourselves too.

:werd:

:hug:

[desidancer]

You are Kafir... All shiite are.

Astaghfirullah!!
im sunni but seriously wat is wrong with you?
who gave you the authority to decide who's muslim and who's not??
do you have no fear?
only Allah has the power to decide that. so calm down hun, before you make any more ridiculous claims. :mad:


it's people like you that prevent muslims from living in peace and unity. go to bhar

[ilyas@!!oops!!]

sweet_redemption u sure ur female? :p :Pelvic2:

[laeRsImanE]

Peshawar nights my ass. I read that retarted thing, it was full of ridiculous non-sensical things which the author actually thought made sense

you may have your points but Allah is the judge of who is what, isn't that true?

[sweet_redemption]

sweet_redemption u sure ur female? :p :Pelvic2:
Are you sure you're human

[sweet_redemption]

you may have your points but Allah is the judge of who is what, isn't that true?
True, but im not the one who posted this thread, and I was sort of giving my verdict, well the verdict of A lot of Sunni scholars as well on the shiite

[ilyas@!!oops!!]

Are you sure you're human
i'm gonna put u on fake section

and make a thread! :yes:


if u don't expose the real u :D

[sweet_redemption]

i'm gonna put u on fake section

and make a thread! :yes:


if u don't expose the real u :D
lmao go ahead, whatever makes your day

[laeRsImanE]

True, but im not the one who posted this thread, and I was sort of giving my verdict, well the verdict of A lot of Sunni scholars as well on the shiite


When you say Sunni scholars, that really makes me itch, are they really SCHOLARS? if they are scholars why do they judge? Don't they know the one and only judge is Allah?

[sweet_redemption]

When you say Sunni scholars, that really makes me itch, are they really SCHOLARS? if they are scholars why do they judge? Don't they know the one and only judge is Allah?
read that extremely long thing on top, it's not written by me. These are well known people, who seem to prove their point.. well they do to me at least

[laeRsImanE]

read that extremely long thing on top, it's not written by me. These are well known people, who seem to prove their point.. well they do to me at least


time has a lot to do with wisdom you know, just because a person studies up on teachings by diff scholars from the past doesnt necessarily make him or her right.

experience plays a strong role as well. I used to think bad of Shia muslims till I learned the truth of the misunderstandings and the differences. There will always be a difference, remember it does say in the Quran that Muslims will eventually fail.

[Narcissus]

Sweet Redemption: Please cite your sources for the really long post you made above.

[sweet_redemption]

Sweet Redemption: Please cite your sources for the really long post you made above.
http://jaamiahamidia.wordpress.com/2007/08/19/shiite-disbelief/

[not-now]

True, but im not the one who posted this thread, and I was sort of giving my verdict, well the verdict of A lot of Sunni scholars as well on the shiite


i'm sure alot of them will also tell you that anyone who believes in the quran is a muslim and that it's very important for all muslims to be united.