What does Israel want?

[KhanNoonienSingh]

With regards to the Palestinians. What have they ever wanted?

Interesting blog article on TIME's site: http://time-blog.com/middle_east/2007/02/the_palestinian_solution_one_s_1.html?xid=site-cnn-partner

A two-state solution has been unfeasible so far because Israel won't allow it to happen until the Palestinians settle for less. The offer by Ehud Barak in 2000 was bullshit since the Palestinians have always said they wouldn't settle for anything less than a return to the pre-1967 borders (all of West Bank and all of Gaza without Israeli-controlled roads/areas splitting it up) and sovereignty over East Jerusalem and the Al-Aqsa Mosque. The Israelis won't allow that.

There's also the problem of the right of return for refugees. This comment on that blog sums it up best:Article 13, Section 2, of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says that every man may leave his country and return to his country. UN Resolution 194, which has been reaffirmed hundreds of times, states that the refugees must be allowed to return at the earliest practicable date. And Dr. Salman Abu Sitta, Palestinian researcher, in "The Feasibility of Return," has shown that it is feasible for the Palestinans to return since Jews are not living on most of the land from which the refugees come.

Again, Israel won't allow that to happen because it claims the changed demographic of Israel would mess up Israel's 'identity' or its 'Jewish character'. :ugh:

And on that note, the other option is a one-state solution like outlined in that post. Just completely join the West Bank and Gaza with Israel and give Palestinians equal rights, including the right to vote and be represented in the government. This would also allow for the return of the refugees according to the above-quoted comment.

But, Israel won't allow democracy to happen either. They allow the one-state solution to happen... that's happening now. Israel runs the entire thing, but it won't allow true democracy to come to the current one-state solution. That could mean that Arabs outnumber Jews and due to the brilliance of Western-style democracy, Israel would suddenly blink out of existence with Arabs in charge or something.

So what's Israel want?

[KhanNoonienSingh]

My thoughts:

I think the answer is obviously to keep the status quo. That means to keep the above political scenario, and to forcibly keep the current military scenario (battling Hamas, and the summer war with Lebanon, etc. threatening war with Iran... basically make sure there's no change or progress for other countries in the entire region).

Before 1948, they came to an area full of Palestinians. The Palestinians were there. You can't pretend they didn't exist. They didn't want to split up the land and give them a seperate homeland, and they didn't want to share a state with them. They basically want to either evict them, or allot some of the land to them and control it like a military territory with no rights. The Palestinians on the other hand, from the beginning wanted a one-state solution, but did not want to be split up like the U.N. made them do. They didn't mind if all the Jews came in and lived there, there was room. And the Arabs would still dominate a government by virtue of greater numbers and territory. This is DESPITE existing small conflicts over Zionist (since the first Jews there were politically affiliated with Zionism) tactics with regards to 'usurping' Palestinian land. But the territory was split up, the Palestinians refused to compromise and were outraged and started a war and played right into Israel's hands because the Zionists had established a checkmate in the region soon after WW1.

This is a religious state, made to cater to a specific ethnic group and forcibly keep that equilibrium. Which imho, amounts to ethnic cleansing through all of it's political and military policies. It was more of a socialist state than democratic and only used democracy as an excuse to ethnically control it's population.

Why is this state allowed to exist? Why was it even carved out of the area to begin with? It makes no sense and isn't in line with any touted principle of either the UN or the Western world.

The only thing I've learned from Western civilization is that if people are riled up, you give them some socialism for a little while. If you want to purify your demographic, you apply some democracy. If you want to control a mixed-demographic, you apply fascism. And you keep all of this hidden from the people by using culture as an instrument to dumb down or distract the population. OR you just go red and become commie (set by the example of the USSR). And when I keep using the word 'you' here, I do mean to imply that there's a ruling elite. Simply the wealthy and powerful if you don't care for crazy conspiracy theories. It could be the military-industrial complex in the USA or similar machinations.

[Cunard]

the palestinians are not in place to be demanding what they want....they did lose the war after all.

Israel isnt going anywhere, its a modern and fully developed country....the palestinians on the other had have done nothing develop there own areas....israel wants security and recognition, if this were to happen, the palestinians would get the two state solution, and borders would be as they are now for the most part....im sure some land swaps would be made......but other then that, nothing else will change.


btw...jews just reclaimed land that was once theres and the palestinians just encroached on and settled...frankly Israel shouldnt even negotiate with scum like the palestinians, once the cemement walls are up, all palestinian movement into Israel should be completly stopped, even educational and hospital trips. this is the only way of ensuring so fanatical jihadist is carrying a bomb to be blown up at an israeli ER or somthing

[KhanNoonienSingh]

the palestinians are not in place to be demanding what they want....they did lose the war after all.so there's nothing wrong with Palestinians waging war to get the land back according to your logic. i'll forward a memo to Hamas.

Israel isnt going anywhere, its a modern and fully developed country....the palestinians on the other had have done nothing develop there own areas...kind of difficult to do that when israeli fences/roads/checkpoints make it an all-day affair to simply travel. that's not to mention travel into or out of both west bank and gaza (gaza still today) is controlled by israel. they wouldn't even let their prime minister come into gaza with money. :ugh:

and since 1967 there have been no 'own areas', the WB and Gaza have been under Israeli control.

israel wants security and recognition, if this were to happen, the palestinians would get the two state solutionthey would not. the israelis would offer what they did in 2000. if you bothered to read that article or my post, you'd know that.

and borders would be as they are now for the most part....im sure some land swaps would be made......but other then that, nothing else will change.they already discussed this in 2000 and couldn't reach an agreement. welcome to 7 years ago.


btw...jews just reclaimed land that was once theres and the palestinians just encroached on and settled...first of all, it's 'theirs'. sorry, bad grammar on top of bigotry just irks me.

secondly, you're a Jew? you believe in the religious texts of the Old Testament, Talmud, etc. which are the only 'deed' to the land for Jews?

'encroached on and settled'... i'm pretty sure having a full surrender from the Byzantines counts as 'encroached on'. the Byzantines owned the place and surrendered it to the Arabs who surrendered it to the Turks who surrendered it to the British... the biblical kingdom of israel has been gone since 6th-7th century BC.

your opinion is more in line with an uneducated superstitious peasant from medieval times.

frankly Israel shouldnt even negotiate with scum like the palestinians, once the cemement walls are up, all palestinian movement into Israel should be completly stopped, even educational and hospital trips. this is the only way of ensuring so fanatical jihadist is carrying a bomb to be blown up at an israeli ER or somthingi forgot, you're a Zionofascist.

i don't believe in calling other ethnicities or people scum, because i'm not a bigot or a racist who should be locked up.

i don't believe in collective punishment either (like the rest of the civilized world). i don't believe in punishing millions of innocent palestinians for a handful of extremists.

i don't believe in ethnic cleansing or purifying. i believe every people should be governed fairly. if Israel wants to govern the palestinians, it should conform to the United Nations' rules. if they don't, they should leave.

the only thing i'll allow your backwards, paindoo ass is this... if Israel wants to annex certain parts of the West Bank and completely withdraw from the others, and completely stop meddling in their affairs (i.e, stop naval blockade of Gaza), then they might be conforming to at least some kind of 'honorable' policy, even if it is something out of the dark ages and not befitting the 21st century. for peace anyway.

what Israel is doing now is all-out war by holding down the Palestinians, and by keeping Lebanon, Syria, Iran, and the rest of the region under constant threat. and as you probably think, all is fair in war... so if the persian 'Cunards' out there in Iran decide to nuke Israel off the map, it's all well and good according to your logic. but you're not using logic. you're using faith. in one side. the Zionist Jews. and a political idealogy that is tyrannically fascist. thus, you are a Zionofascist.

[jumpn jza]

The most horrible situation for the palestinians is that they no longer own any land...this is a type of colonialism where the occupied have taken the land of the indigenous people and attempted to rewrite histroy by saying that "the palestinians never existed"...but we can see with our own eyes that people do in fact live there...

The occupation is brutal, and Israeli checkpoints cover the WB and Gaza....settlements are placed all over Palestinian territory...Palestinians are forced from their homes and their homes are demolished to make way for Israeli settlements which are illegal by international law...

You have to remember how the land of Palestine was created through racism...it was created by Zionists with the help of the british, Winston Churchill once said (regarding palestine)

"i do not believe that the dog in the manger has the final right to tghe manger even if he has lay there for quite a long time" - he then proceeded to say things along the lines of white supremacy...even the Israeli prime ministers of the past have expressed hate for the Palestinian people, Isaac Shamir said "it is not right for people who have just come down from the trees to take themselves for world leaders" - THAT IS ZIONISM, its a racist ideology which doesnt regard Palestinians as being equal at all...

In terms of "this is jewish land", yeh...the land belonged to a lot of different groups of people over a lot of different times...doesnt give Israel the right to do what they do...

I can never comprehend Cunard's hatred for the Palestinian people...too much fox news i guess, i guess he would have supported aparthied in SA aswell...

[time passer]

frankly Israel shouldnt even negotiate with scum like the palestinians
This guy's a moderator? Nice.

[rex_maximus]

The Palestinians on the other hand, from the beginning wanted a one-state solution, but did not want to be split up like the U.N. made them do. They didn't mind if all the Jews came in and lived there, there was room.

dude, please...

[Cunard]

This guy's a moderator? Nice.

im sorry, but people that employ the mentally challanged, children, people in wheel chairs, and the elderly as suicide bombers...which are directed to attack hospital ER's, public buses, restaurants, and other openly civilain areas are scum....i would place them in the same catergory as child molesters and rapists

me being a moderator doesnt mean that im could hold unbias views when it comes to topics like these...i have opinions like everyone else

if i was attacking somone personally on RD with name calling and profanity...then perhaps you have some case...but at the moment you do not

[paulie walnuts]

-to secure israel proper and eliminate terrorism against its jewish citizens
-to end the israel-palestine conflict while conceding as little as possible in terms of land or policy
-to leave open the option of under-the-radar annexation of palestinian territory as currently practiced

[Cunard]

so there's nothing wrong with Palestinians waging war to get the land back according to your logic. i'll forward a memo to Hamas.

theres nothing wrong in targetting the Israeli military to gain land or whatever else is on the Hamas agenda...question is, is it worth it?

also, attempting to blow up hospital er's and commuter buses to the only purpose to kill as many civilians as possible is the not the way to conduct a war.....if this was true, most palestinians would already be dead.....but since israel has left so many to live, the palestinians constant imbreeding has actually tripled there population since 48...so this whole notion of ethnic cleansing and all the other nonsense is quote hilarious

kind of difficult to do that when israeli fences/roads/checkpoints make it an all-day affair to simply travel. that's not to mention travel into or out of both west bank and gaza (gaza still today) is controlled by israel. they wouldn't even let their prime minister come into gaza with money. :ugh:

from what i remember the hamas pm had 35 million euros in duffle bags :lol:

and since the palestinian govt is under sanctions as punishment....why would he be allowed to bring money in which would have been spent on weapons and jihadist activity anyway?

and since 1967 there have been no 'own areas', the WB and Gaza have been under Israeli control.

well actually, the west bank was under jordanian control and gaza was under egyptian control before 1967...till those two countries lost the war which they themselves tried to start :lol:

they would not. the israelis would offer what they did in 2000. if you bothered to read that article or my post, you'd know that.

yasser arafat is out of the picture now

they already discussed this in 2000 and couldn't reach an agreement. welcome to 7 years ago.

yasser arafat is out of the picture now

first of all, it's 'theirs'. sorry, bad grammar on top of bigotry just irks me.

lol...my spelling has exactly what to do with any of this?...ive come across your spelling mistakes as well but you dont see my pointing every single one out........if u want to act like a child...go for it

secondly, you're a Jew? you believe in the religious texts of the Old Testament, Talmud, etc. which are the only 'deed' to the land for Jews?

i dont believe any of it

'encroached on and settled'... i'm pretty sure having a full surrender from the Byzantines counts as 'encroached on'. the Byzantines owned the place and surrendered it to the Arabs who surrendered it to the Turks who surrendered it to the British... the biblical kingdom of israel has been gone since 6th-7th century BC.

just as Jordan and Egypt surrenderd the land they lost in 67.....or have you forgotton that the west bank and gaza were under egyptian/jordanian control pre 1967

your opinion is more in line with an uneducated superstitious peasant from medieval times.

i forgot, you're a Zionofascist.

LOL


i don't believe in calling other ethnicities or people scum, because i'm not a bigot or a racist who should be locked up.

scum is scum :dunno:

i don't believe in collective punishment either (like the rest of the civilized world). i don't believe in punishing millions of innocent palestinians for a handful of extremists

collective punishment is the alternative to collective bombing....personally id rather see the family of a sucide bomber made homeless then to see an entire palestinian city demolished....the reality is though, to win wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other hot spots, WW2 tactics need to be brought into play again

i don't believe in ethnic cleansing or purifying. i believe every people should be governed fairly. if Israel wants to govern the palestinians, it should conform to the United Nations' rules. if they don't, they should leave.

2400 palestinians killed over 5 years isnt ethnic cleansing :lol:

the only thing i'll allow your backwards, paindoo ass is this... if Israel wants to annex certain parts of the West Bank and completely withdraw from the others, and completely stop meddling in their affairs (i.e, stop naval blockade of Gaza), then they might be conforming to at least some kind of 'honorable' policy, even if it is something out of the dark ages and not befitting the 21st century. for peace anyway.


you actually think Israel wants to hold onto the west bank and gaza? they want out as much as anyone else....however everytime the israelis withdraw the palestinians begin shooting or firing rockets....the IDF is there to stay for a long time...get used to it

what Israel is doing now is all-out war by holding down the Palestinians, and by keeping Lebanon, Syria, Iran, and the rest of the region under constant threat. and as you probably think, all is fair in war... so if the persian 'Cunards' out there in Iran decide to nuke Israel off the map, it's all well and good according to your logic. but you're not using logic. you're using faith. in one side. the Zionist Jews. and a political idealogy that is tyrannically fascist. thus, you are a Zionofascist.

:rofl:

the rest is garbage....entertaining read though

[KhanNoonienSingh]

dude, please...
until Israel was created there wasn't widespread animosity towards Jews... and Arabs outnumbered Jews by a huge margin, any one-state government would be predominantly Arab. i'm pretty sure they weren't too stressed about that scenario.

-to secure israel proper and eliminate terrorism against its jewish citizens
-to end the israel-palestine conflict while conceding as little as possible in terms of land or policy
-to leave open the option of under-the-radar annexation of palestinian territory as currently practicedwinnar.

[KhanNoonienSingh]

theres nothing wrong in targetting the Israeli military to gain land or whatever else is on the Hamas agenda...question is, is it worth it?probably the only thing you've said that makes sense. whether it's worth it or not, they're gonna muster everything in their power towards that goal.

altho the israel-palestine thing is gonna kind of be sidetracked a little now by other issues in the mideast (iraq and iran).

also, attempting to blow up hospital er's and commuter buses to the only purpose to kill as many civilians as possible is the not the way to conduct a war.....if this was true, most palestinians would already be dead.....but since israel has left so many to live, the palestinians constant imbreeding has actually tripled there population since 48...so this whole notion of ethnic cleansing and all the other nonsense is quote hilariousyou ALWAYS do this. bringing up random isolated incidents... does Hamas have a consistent policy of concerted targeting of hospitals and commuter buses? (assuming for a minute we ignore that Israel destroyed way many more of those in Lebanon just this summer... yeah their policy is great). you need to start posting direct links/references to actual attacks or statistics...

i like the inbreeding reference... :ugh: it's actually Jews who did that for a while, then they mixed with other non-Semetic races to make up their current genetic profile. Arabs have no lack of diversity in their genetic pool. even your insults are kind of lame.

and i agree, Israel's goal is not to kill as many civilians as possible. it's to take over land and purify it to be a part of 'a Jewish state' of Israel. instead of killing, they push out.

you basically just picked out my argument and called it 'hilarious' without addressing any of my original points behind it. good job.

from what i remember the hamas pm had 35 million euros in duffle bags :lol:rofl, yeah. and they didn't even let him in with that. how exactly do you expect the Palestinians to do anything 'on their own' again? i mean... you did use those words. surely you must have had a well-formed idea behind them?

and since the palestinian govt is under sanctions as punishment....why would he be allowed to bring money in which would have been spent on weapons and jihadist activity anyway?because... you just said "the palestinians on the other had have done nothing develop there own areas..."

are you changing your mind? :-s

well actually, the west bank was under jordanian control and gaza was under egyptian control before 1967...till those two countries lost the war which they themselves tried to start :lol:which has nothing to do with my point. which is that post-1967 the Palestinians had no areas of their 'own' to develop.

yasser arafat is out of the picture now



yasser arafat is out of the picture now how... on EARTH... is that a response to my statement? it isn't.

the sky is blue.

the sky is blue.

lol...my spelling has exactly what to do with any of this?...ive come across your spelling mistakes as well but you dont see my pointing every single one out........if u want to act like a child...go for iti said grammar, not spelling.

better a child than a despicable monster. :arrow:

i dont believe any of itif you don't believe any of it, how could you POSSIBLY say: "jews just reclaimed land that was once theres and the palestinians just encroached on and settled"?!

wtf? the only claim the Jews had was RELIGIOUS. according to CIVILIZED political science and international law, being on a piece of land over 2000 years ago is NOT an entitlement to a claim...

just as Jordan and Egypt surrenderd the land they lost in 67.....or have you forgotton that the west bank and gaza were under egyptian/jordanian control pre 1967of course not. but according to your logic, surrendering is the same thing as the winner 'encroaching on and settling'. so the Israelis encroached on and settled in the WB and Gaza? :rofl:

scum is scum :dunno:i guess you'd know all about that.

collective punishment is the alternative to collective bombing....personally id rather see the family of a sucide bomber made homeless then to see an entire palestinian city demolished....the reality is though, to win wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other hot spots, WW2 tactics need to be brought into play againthen what's wrong with Iran nuking Israel off the map? what's wrong with Al-Qaeda setting off a nuke in New York City?

those are WW2 tactics. :ugh2:

2400 palestinians killed over 5 years isnt ethnic cleansing :lol:i've been talking about since 1948.

and ethnic cleansing is not just killing. it's cleansing an AREA. forced displacement counts as ethnic cleansing. :idea:

Ethnic cleansing refers to various policies or practices aimed at the displacement of an ethnic group from a particular territory. The term entered English and international usage in the early 1990s to describe certain events in the former Yugoslavia, with the induced cleansing of Bosniaks ("Bosnian Muslims"). Narrower definitions equate ethnic cleansing with forcible population transfer accompanied by gross human-rights violations and other factors. In broader definitions it is effectively a synonym of population transfer.

Synonyms include sectarian revenge and ethnic purification and (in the French versions of some UN documents) nettoyage ethnique and épuration ethnique.
lol.

you actually think Israel wants to hold onto the west bank and gaza? they want out as much as anyone else....however everytime the israelis withdraw the palestinians begin shooting or firing rockets....the IDF is there to stay for a long time...get used to itif Israel completely withdrew from the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem... and stopped the blockading and stuff... there'd be no attacks on Israel. every single interview or piece of insight we have into the Palestinian militant machine (Hamas, Fatah's militant wing, all of them) all reinforce that. they might fight each other but most all the anti-Israel violence would evaporate.

you have an example with Hezbollah... they've had isolated cross-border skirmishes with Israel only because they still have disputed land and disputed prisoners. it's a proven fact now... Israel reneged on an agreement to trade prisoners and discuss border issues, so Hezbollah took more prisoners... that's how the 2006 conflict started... aside from that, there wasn't daily terrorism/violence towards Israel at all.

but Israel attacked Lebanon not as revenge for the soldiers' kidnapping and not as an attempt to force Hezbollah to it's negotiation commitments... but because it wanted to destroy Hezbollah.

so the whole 'annihilation' thing seems one-way, and not towards Israel.

:rofl:

the rest is garbage....entertaining read thoughmaybe the news up in Canada is a little late. i think you missed all the press releases by Ehud Olmert randomly butting into the Iran problem by declaring Israel would not stand for a nuclear Iran and might take matters into it's own hands if things aren't resolved (note, he did not say they'd attack Iran if they had nukes. he said Israel would attack Iran if it FELT like it because they won't let Iran finish it's still-as-of-now phantom nuke program).

or the threats against Lebanon? you know how the UN troops there under the French even talked about firing on Israeli jets?

or the threats against Syria? Olmert has admitted Israel must surrender ALL of the Golan Heights if it is to pursue peace with Syria... but it hasn't. and he still uses it as diplomatic leverage to threaten Syria into compliance with it's desires.

[nayeemx33]

...

[thereaSon]

Cunard, why do you always bring drama? You clearly see Khan has standing points. Come on, give him a hug.

[thereaSon]

...


:shhh:

[Space-Cowboy]

maybe the news up in Canada is a little late.

:squint:

[Gladiator]

if i'm not wrong, it's israel that constantly thugs syria, lebanon, and the territories by violating their airspace and breaking sound barriers.

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

The most horrible situation for the palestinians is that they no longer own any land...this is a type of colonialism where the occupied have taken the land of the indigenous people and attempted to rewrite histroy by saying that "the palestinians never existed"...but we can see with our own eyes that people do in fact live there...

The occupation is brutal, and Israeli checkpoints cover the WB and Gaza....settlements are placed all over Palestinian territory...Palestinians are forced from their homes and their homes are demolished to make way for Israeli settlements which are illegal by international law...

You have to remember how the land of Palestine was created through racism...it was created by Zionists with the help of the british, Winston Churchill once said (regarding palestine)

"i do not believe that the dog in the manger has the final right to tghe manger even if he has lay there for quite a long time" - he then proceeded to say things along the lines of white supremacy...even the Israeli prime ministers of the past have expressed hate for the Palestinian people, Isaac Shamir said "it is not right for people who have just come down from the trees to take themselves for world leaders" - THAT IS ZIONISM, its a racist ideology which doesnt regard Palestinians as being equal at all...

In terms of "this is jewish land", yeh...the land belonged to a lot of different groups of people over a lot of different times...doesnt give Israel the right to do what they do...

I can never comprehend Cunard's hatred for the Palestinian people...too much fox news i guess, i guess he would have supported aparthied in SA aswell...

just because the person who helped create Israel was a racist, it doesn't mean that the idealogy of the country of Israel is a racist one. he used a racist comment to justify his actions. hardly means Israel was created BECAUSE of racism. hardly means anything, really.

occupying the Palestinian territory with checkpoints has already proven to lower the amount of suicide bombings on Israeli civilians significantly. security is a bitch, but it is necessary for Israeli civilians not getting blown up in nightclubs, schoolbusses, restaurants, etc.


until Israel was created there wasn't widespread animosity towards Jews...


thats a ridiculous thing to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands

[KhanNoonienSingh]

just because the person who helped create Israel was a racist, it doesn't mean that the idealogy of the country of Israel is a racist one. he used a racist comment to justify his actions. hardly means Israel was created BECAUSE of racism. hardly means anything, really.
according to you...

action: creating Israel
justification: racism
conclusion: israel was not created because of racism...

oookay.

occupying the Palestinian territory with checkpoints has already proven to lower the amount of suicide bombings on Israeli civilians significantly. security is a bitch, but it is necessary for Israeli civilians not getting blown up in nightclubs, schoolbusses, restaurants, etc. i'm pretty sure a palestinian could argue eliminating israeli presence would improve their security.

thats a ridiculous thing to say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
did you even READ that entry? i said until Israel was created... and yeah, that completely backs me up. the Jewish exodus from Arab lands was primarily post-1948 (after Israel was created).

you seem to have trouble with simple reading comprehension.

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

according to you...

action: creating Israel
justification: racism
conclusion: israel was not created because of racism...

oookay.

i punched my brother in the face because i hate him for being born.
my justification for it was that he took my car without permission.
however, that is not why i punched him in the face. get it?.

justifying your actions sometimes is saying why it should be done anyway. doesnt mean that thats why its being done in the first place.


i'm pretty sure a palestinian could argue eliminating israeli presence would improve their security.

:rolleyes:

do you really want to talk about why thats not a valid argument?

did you even READ that entry? i said until Israel was created... and yeah, that completely backs me up. the Jewish exodus from Arab lands was primarily post-1948 (after Israel was created).


you seem to have trouble with simple reading comprehension.

right, cause they finally had a homeland and could escape persecution.

read it.

[di vinci]

a new holocaust. guys im only brainstorming :D

[jumpn jza]

occupying the Palestinian territory with checkpoints has already proven to lower the amount of suicide bombings on Israeli civilians significantly. security is a bitch, but it is necessary for Israeli civilians not getting blown up in nightclubs, schoolbusses, restaurants, etc.

There are checkpoints all over the West Bank which is Palestinian land...land which does not belong to Israel..

[Space-Cowboy]

All I see going back and forth are black and white arguments... In reality BOTH sides are guilty of war crimes and that [I]both sides are guilty of human rights violations.

[jumpn jza]

All I see going back and forth are black and white arguments... In reality BOTH sides are guilty of war crimes and that [I]both sides are guilty of human rights violations.

yes thats true...but Israel is the country living on Palestinian land, they have settlements on land that doesnt belong to them...

both are guilty though...of various crimes...

[Menelik_II]

yes thats true...but Israel is the country living on Palestinian land, they have settlements on land that doesnt belong to them...

both are guilty though...of various crimes...


The land belongs to Israel, The moslem presence only became established in Judea after Umar Ibn Al Khattab and his army siezed syria and Palestine fromt the Byzantine empire. The muslims are as much an "occupying" presence as they hold the Jews to be, no matter how long they've been living there.

[jumpn jza]

The land belongs to Israel, The moslem presence only became established in Judea after Umar Ibn Al Khattab and his army siezed syria and Palestine fromt the Byzantine empire. The muslims are as much an "occupying" presence as they hold the Jews to be, no matter how long they've been living there.


dude...i know that...but when this modern wave of jews walked into Israel....the fact is that at that time, a people did live there and they are the Palestinian people (no religion attached), i show solidarity for those people...lots of people owned that land for various periods of time...the jews controlled it thousands of years ago, doesnt mean shit...

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

There are checkpoints all over the West Bank which is Palestinian land...land which does not belong to Israel..

that doesnt contradict with anything i said. did you even read my post?

[jumpn jza]

that doesnt contradict with anything i said. did you even read my post?

ok whatever u win..i give up on these palestine topics...im just tired of saying the same shit over and over again...enjoy your day

[rex_maximus]

until Israel was created there wasn't widespread animosity towards Jews... and Arabs outnumbered Jews by a huge margin, any one-state government would be predominantly Arab. i'm pretty sure they weren't too stressed about that scenario.



uh...no. there have always been hate attacks against 'palestinian jews'. those were the reason that irgun and haganah (idf precursor) were formed. dozens are on record from pre 1948...unless of course, you believe they were all cooked up by the 'zionist propoganda machine'.

[Menelik_II]

dude...i know that...but when this modern wave of jews walked into Israel....the fact is that at that time, a people did live there and they are the Palestinian people (no religion attached), i show solidarity for those people...lots of people owned that land for various periods of time...the jews controlled it thousands of years ago, doesnt mean shit...


So if Israel manages to survive for a few centuries you'll say the Palestinian claims "don't mean shit"?

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

uh...no. there have always been hate attacks against 'palestinian jews'. those were the reason that irgun and haganah (idf precursor) were formed. dozens are on record from pre 1948...unless of course, you believe they were all cooked up by the 'zionist propoganda machine'.

Jews have been persecuted in most arab/muslim lands that they resided in, not just "Palestine"

his notion that its all cause of the creation of Israel, is pretty funny. not his fault though, its a common misconception amongst people.

[thereaSon]

Jews have been persecuted in most arab/muslim lands that they resided in, not just "Palestine"

his notion that its all cause of the creation of Israel, is pretty funny. not his fault though, its a common misconception amongst people.


So tell us O' wise one, who were the righteous owners of the land before Judaism was established? And how did the Jewish gain their ownership of their land. Educate me please?

[dandiwal_jatt]

the palestinians are not in place to be demanding what they want....they did lose the war after all.

just because they lost in war, doesn't mean the land does not belong to them anymore
so if india and nepal go to war, india takes over nepal, u'll say nepali people need to stop whining b/c they lost the war?


palestinians are essentially being punished for the crimes of the nazi regime, in every single argument u make in these threads, u ignore the fact that tens of thousands of palestinians were uprooted from their homes. israel needs to recognize the refugee problem, the fundamental "right to return" of the palestinians

palestinians have every right to wage war, even if they have no chance, until they get their land back.
instead of recognizing the anti jewish sentiments in europe and doing something about it, the winning powers in WWII decided to kick palestinians out of their land to make space for jews

i have nothing against jews, but palestinians were punished for the crimes of nazi and other european powers

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

So tell us O' wise one, who were the righteous owners of the land before Judaism was established? And how did the Jewish gain their ownership of their land. Educate me please?

it belonged to the canaanites (whom noone knows what race they were), and Jews gained that land through going to war with them.

how is that related to the part you quoted?

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

just because they lost in war, doesn't mean the land does not belong to them anymore

they didnt own the land before, anyway. before 1948, the British owned it.

"oh so the british took over but they owned it before the british "

no, before the British, the Turks owned it.

[thereaSon]

it belonged to the canaanites (whom noone knows what race they were), and Jews gained that land through going to war with them.

how is that related to the part you quoted?


Even though I quoted you, my question do you did not deal with your quote, it dealt with your knowledge and it clearly shows you have no clue about the history of the land that is "currently" owned by the Palestinians. :idea:

[rex_maximus]

lol...all this talk about ownership. history provides evidence that dozens of different races have fought over and owned that land at different time. as such, no one group really has a completely exclusive claim over it.

therefore, might makes right.

that only leaves the question as to what means of force are acceptable, and what are not. to the pro-zionist side, all resistance = terrorism = evil. to the anti-zionist side, mere jewish presence as well as any and all military activity = evil.

and the circus continues...

[Menelik_II]

lol...all this talk about ownership. history provides evidence that dozens of different races have fought over and owned that land at different time. as such, no one group really has a completely exclusive claim over it.

therefore, might makes right.

that only leaves the question as to what means of force are acceptable, and what are not. to the pro-zionist side, all resistance = terrorism = evil. to the anti-zionist side, mere jewish presence as well as any and all military activity = evil.

and the circus continues...

Indeed, very true

[thereaSon]

Many have said to what I will say:


Take the weapons given to Israel by U.S.A. and other allies and the ones given to Palestine by their allies.


Let them war it out. The standing party will take the land. As it would have been centuries ago.


Yes unfortunately that can only remain a suggestion, Israel will never fight fair and nor will Palestinians.

[Menelik_II]

Many have said to what I will say:


Take the weapons given to Israel by U.S.A. and other allies and the ones given to Palestine by their allies.


Let them war it out. The standing party will take the land. As it would have been centuries ago.


Yes unfortunately that can only remain a suggestion, Israel will never fight fair and nor will Palestinians.

The palestinians, lol nothing would hold the Arab hordes back from Israel's borders. It wouldn't be Israeli vs. Palestinian, it would be Israel vs. the pan Islamic, terrorist, suicide-bombing masses.

Look at the wars that the arabs launched against Israel.

[thereaSon]

The palestinians, lol nothing would hold the Arab hordes back from Israel's borders. It wouldn't be Israeli vs. Palestinian, it would be Israel vs. the pan Islamic, terrorist, suicide-bombing masses.

Look at the wars that the arabs launched against Israel.


Do you really think that will happen? Then howcome no major Arab country is helping the Palestinians at the moment.

But what is meant to happen will happen either way, U.S. will help Israel as much as possible to gain land in the middle east and the Palestinians will end up being slaughtered to gain land.

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

Even though I quoted you, my question do you did not deal with your quote, it dealt with your knowledge and it clearly shows you have no clue about the history of the land that is "currently" owned by the Palestinians. :idea:

back it up and use credible sources


But what is meant to happen will happen either way, U.S. will help Israel as much as possible to gain land in the middle east

you think thats Israel's goal? in the past 30 years Israel has lost land by simply giving it away for peace (or peace attempts).

[Cunard]

lol...all this talk about ownership. history provides evidence that dozens of different races have fought over and owned that land at different time. as such, no one group really has a completely exclusive claim over it.

therefore, might makes right.

that only leaves the question as to what means of force are acceptable, and what are not. to the pro-zionist side, all resistance = terrorism = evil. to the anti-zionist side, mere jewish presence as well as any and all military activity = evil.

and the circus continues...

well said

[Space-Cowboy]

lol...all this talk about ownership. history provides evidence that dozens of different races have fought over and owned that land at different time. as such, no one group really has a completely exclusive claim over it.

therefore, might makes right.

that only leaves the question as to what means of force are acceptable, and what are not. to the pro-zionist side, all resistance = terrorism = evil. to the anti-zionist side, mere jewish presence as well as any and all military activity = evil.

and the circus continues...


:werd:

[Space-Cowboy]

I'm sure everyone's already seen this, but this Imperial History of the Middle East maps-of-war roughly outlines who's controlled what in the region:

http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

[TechPhunk]

The palestinians, lol nothing would hold the Arab hordes back from Israel's borders. It wouldn't be Israeli vs. Palestinian, it would be Israel vs. the pan Islamic, terrorist, suicide-bombing masses.

Look at the wars that the arabs launched against Israel.

Exactly.

On that note, maybe if Palestine was able to establish a legitimate government along with a legitimate society, they actually might have a chance at getting land back. But because they keep throwing irrationale ideas into the mix, everyone loses.

[KhanNoonienSingh]

i punched my brother in the face because i hate him for being born.
my justification for it was that he took my car without permission.
however, that is not why i punched him in the face. get it?.no. you can never truly know 'why' another person does anything. we aren't mind-readers. best we can do is deduce if someone's logic makes no sense.

and in this case, the israeli leader's logic made perfect sense.

:rolleyes:

do you really want to talk about why thats not a valid argument?yes. why isn't it? it follows the exact same logic as your previous statement. unless your logic is inconsistent, it should be valid according to you.

right, cause they finally had a homeland and could escape persecution.

read it.um. so then what the hell does that have to do with my original statement?

me: "jews weren't hated as much before israel"
you: "no. that's ridiculous. [links to article about jewish exodus after israel]"
me: "yes. AFTER israel. that just proves my point."
you: "no. because they had a homeland and could escape persecution."
me: "..."

:|

[KhanNoonienSingh]

uh...no. there have always been hate attacks against 'palestinian jews'. those were the reason that irgun and haganah (idf precursor) were formed. dozens are on record from pre 1948...unless of course, you believe they were all cooked up by the 'zionist propoganda machine'.once again, considering the sheer size of the respective populations, these were proportionately far few and inbetween. it didn't become a predominant thing among both camps until the mid-40s with Israel's impending creation.

'dozens' of any incident don't speak for a population. that's ludicrous.

[KhanNoonienSingh]

Jews have been persecuted in most arab/muslim lands that they resided in, not just "Palestine"

his notion that its all cause of the creation of Israel, is pretty funny. not his fault though, its a common misconception amongst people.
lmfao.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_the_Iberian_Penins ula

lol @ your phantom history.

all of the relatively 'bad' treatment started by the 1940s... when... *drum roll* Israel was created.

altho you can go ahead and fault muslims for treating them better at least than everyone else.

[KhanNoonienSingh]

Even though I quoted you, my question to you did not deal with your quote, it dealt with your knowledge and it clearly shows you have no clue about the history of the land that is "currently" owned by the Palestinians. :idea:
:lol:

well saidhow is that well said? you JUST said that JEWS had claim over the land whereas rex is saying no one group has exclusive claim to it.

:|

[KhanNoonienSingh]

The palestinians, lol nothing would hold the Arab hordes back from Israel's borders. It wouldn't be Israeli vs. Palestinian, it would be Israel vs. the pan Islamic, terrorist, suicide-bombing masses.

Look at the wars that the arabs launched against Israel.
so what's wrong with letting them fight it out to you? it was arab land, the israelis wanted to take it. they should have to go through all the arabs then, innit?

the arabs historically earned their superior numbers, territory and status compared to their hebrew cousins. especially considering arabs 'spun off' from hebrews. it's a perfectly legitimate advantage in the big picture, no?

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

no. you can never truly know 'why' another person does anything. we aren't mind-readers. best we can do is deduce if someone's logic makes no sense.

and in this case, the israeli leader's logic made perfect sense.

first of all, it was a British leader who said it.

second of all, his comment was clearly explaining why noone should care. unless that statement was in response to the question "why was Israel created" this is pointless.

yes. why isn't it? it follows the exact same logic as your previous statement. unless your logic is inconsistent, it should be valid according to you.

no, not even close. if you want to challenge my logic, youll have to give the a situation in which the conditions are the same and ask me if it applies. your example involves genocide.

um. so then what the hell does that have to do with my original statement?

me: "jews weren't hated as much before israel"
you: "no. that's ridiculous. [links to article about jewish exodus after israel]"
me: "yes. AFTER israel. that just proves my point."
you: "no. because they had a homeland and could escape persecution."
me: "..."
:|

lmfao.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_under_Muslim_rule

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_age_of_Jewish_culture_in_the_Iberian_Penins ula

lol @ your phantom history.

all of the relatively 'bad' treatment started by the 1940s... when... *drum roll* Israel was created.

altho you can go ahead and fault muslims for treating them better at least than everyone else.

first of all, :rofl: @ the word "bad" being in quotes. smh.


History of Jews in Arab lands (Pre-1948)

After the conquest of these lands by Arab Muslims, Jews, along with Christians and Zoroastrians, typically had the legal status of dhimmi. As such, they were entitled to limited rights, tolerance, and protection, on the condition they pay a special poll tax (the "jizya"). In return for the tax, dhimmis were exempted from military service. As dhimmi, Jews were typically subjected to several restrictions, the application and severity of which varied by time and place: residency in segregated quarters, obligation to wear distinctive clothing, public subservience to Muslims, prohibitions against proselytizing and marrying Muslim women (according to Islam, a Muslim woman can only marry a Muslim man), and limited access to the legal systems

Mass murders of Jews and deaths due to political instability did however occur in North Africa throughout the centuries and especially in Morocco, Libya and Algeria where eventually Jews were forced to live in ghettos. Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in the Middle Ages in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Yemen. Jews were also forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen, Morocco and Baghdad at certain times.


like i thought, youd didnt read the damn link.

[Menelik_II]

so what's wrong with letting them fight it out to you? it was arab land, the israelis wanted to take it. they should have to go through all the arabs then, innit?

the arabs historically earned their superior numbers, territory and status compared to their hebrew cousins. especially considering arabs 'spun off' from hebrews. it's a perfectly legitimate advantage in the big picture, no?

I did not say anything was wrong, I said that any war would not be limited to Israel vs. palestinian. I said that it would be a pan islamic jihad against israel/

[whiteass]

With regards to the Palestinians. What have they ever wanted?

Interesting blog article on TIME's site: http://time-blog.com/middle_east/2007/02/the_palestinian_solution_one_s_1.html?xid=site-cnn-partner

A two-state solution has been unfeasible so far because Israel won't allow it to happen until the Palestinians settle for less. The offer by Ehud Barak in 2000 was bullshit since the Palestinians have always said they wouldn't settle for anything less than a return to the pre-1967 borders (all of West Bank and all of Gaza without Israeli-controlled roads/areas splitting it up) and sovereignty over East Jerusalem and the Al-Aqsa Mosque. The Israelis won't allow that.

There's also the problem of the right of return for refugees. This comment on that blog sums it up best:

Again, Israel won't allow that to happen because it claims the changed demographic of Israel would mess up Israel's 'identity' or its 'Jewish character'. :ugh:

And on that note, the other option is a one-state solution like outlined in that post. Just completely join the West Bank and Gaza with Israel and give Palestinians equal rights, including the right to vote and be represented in the government. This would also allow for the return of the refugees according to the above-quoted comment.

But, Israel won't allow democracy to happen either. They allow the one-state solution to happen... that's happening now. Israel runs the entire thing, but it won't allow true democracy to come to the current one-state solution. That could mean that Arabs outnumber Jews and due to the brilliance of Western-style democracy, Israel would suddenly blink out of existence with Arabs in charge or something.

So what's Israel want?

World domination.

[Arshy]

For what is not yours, shall never be yours,
a war or ethnic cleansing will still not make it yours,
For when you moved there, it was never yours,
so you killed, snatched to make it look like it was yours,
then you tried to make the world believe it was yours,
for centuries you occupied, what was never yours,

so then came a time, when everyone realised it was mine,
the waves of violence turned to take back what was mine,
what you called terror, was actually a struggle of mine,
to get rid of the zionists, to reclaim what was always mine,
and peace there shall never be, because it is a claim of mine,
for what was never yours, shall soon, again, be mine! ~Arshy~

[Atharvan]

just because they lost in war, doesn't mean the land does not belong to them anymore
so if india and nepal go to war, india takes over nepal, u'll say nepali people need to stop whining b/c they lost the war?


palestinians are essentially being punished for the crimes of the nazi regime, in every single argument u make in these threads, u ignore the fact that tens of thousands of palestinians were uprooted from their homes. israel needs to recognize the refugee problem, the fundamental "right to return" of the palestinians

palestinians have every right to wage war, even if they have no chance, until they get their land back.
instead of recognizing the anti jewish sentiments in europe and doing something about it, the winning powers in WWII decided to kick palestinians out of their land to make space for jews

i have nothing against jews, but palestinians were punished for the crimes of nazi and other european powers


read about the link between the Mufti of Jerusalem and Nazi Germany.It is a well-documented fact.He instigated the murder of 400,000 Jews.

[Atharvan]

World domination.

I'll tell you what---I would rather have America and Israel in charge of a the world than say some rogue, unproven and unstable country in the middle east.

[Menelik_II]

For what is not yours, shall never be yours,
a war or ethnic cleansing will still not make it yours,
For when you moved there, it was never yours,
so you killed, snatched to make it look like it was yours,
then you tried to make the world believe it was yours,
for centuries you occupied, what was never yours,

so then came a time, when everyone realised it was mine,
the waves of violence turned to take back what was mine,
what you called terror, was actually a struggle of mine,
to get rid of the zionists, to reclaim what was always mine,
and peace there shall never be, because it is a claim of mine,
for what was never yours, shall soon, again, be mine! ~Arshy~

keep dreaming :roll:

[jumpn jza]

For what is not yours, shall never be yours,
a war or ethnic cleansing will still not make it yours,
For when you moved there, it was never yours,
so you killed, snatched to make it look like it was yours,
then you tried to make the world believe it was yours,
for centuries you occupied, what was never yours,

so then came a time, when everyone realised it was mine,
the waves of violence turned to take back what was mine,
what you called terror, was actually a struggle of mine,
to get rid of the zionists, to reclaim what was always mine,
and peace there shall never be, because it is a claim of mine,
for what was never yours, shall soon, again, be mine! ~Arshy~

that was good....free palestine...

[Space-Cowboy]

Perhaps slightly offtopic... but since this threads already junked, I see no harm:



I was looking through youtube on the history of violence in the Mid-East/Mediterranean.... and I came across this Sheik essentially blaming the Jews of today for..... well....... pretty much everything........ and I sincerely hope this guy is simply an exception and not the norm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG-ayE2mV-0

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

.. and I sincerely hope this guy is simply an exception and not the norm:


lol. thats regular occurence in Arab/Muslim media. all kinds of anti-Jewish propaganda is played all the time, and this hate is being systematically taught to young children so that they can grow up and continue the tradition (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vtyUXPsZsjg)

www.pmw.org.il

www.memritv.org <--- go to search by category and youll see all sorts of crazy shit