(Further) Nuclearization of the Middle ieast

[Menelik_II]

http://www.debka.com/images/logo_headline.gif

DEBKAfile Exclusive: Saudis to purchase nuclear option, advanced missiles and spy satellites off the shelf from Pakistan and Russia

February 15, 2007, 3:27 PM (GMT+02:00)

Moscow will assist in Saudi development of a civilian nuclear program and build six “research satellites” for the oil kingdom. DEBKAfile’s Gulf intelligence sources report this was agreed in the talks held in Riyadh earlier this week by visiting Russian president Vladimir Putin and King Abdullah. Israeli military sources report that Moscow in fact undertook to provide Saudi Arabia with half a dozen military surveillance satellites, launch them and set up ground control centers, thereby making the oil kingdom the first Middle East national with a multiple spy satellite capability for tracking the military movements of its neighbors, including Iran and Israel.

This Saudi-Russian venture has got Israel worried because it will enable Riyadh to pick up highly sensitive intelligence on its military movements and relay it to Egypt and the Palestinians.

This development confirms DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s previous disclosures that the Saudis do not intend wasting time developing their own military capabilities but are going shopping for finished products.

On Jan. 21, Saudi rulers favored visiting Pakistani president Gen. Pervez Musharraf with exception honors when he arrived at the outset of a tour of five Arab capitals. DEBKA-Net-Weekly described King Abdullah as personally welcoming the visitor and driving him in the royal convoy to a palace outside the capital where they were closeted alone for three hours. The king also conferred on the Pakistani ruler the King Abdul Aziz Award.

This ceremonial led up to an epic accord of 7 secret clauses on the terms in which Pakistan would make nuclear weapons available to, and sell, Saudi Arabia nuclear-capable missiles. DEBKA-Net-Weekly’s sources revealed that Musharraf undertook to make them available in the event of a nuclear emergency facing Saudi Arabia, the Gulf emirates, Egypt or Jordan. A mechanism was thus set up for Saudi Arabia to potentially beat Iran to the draw in acquiring a nuclear bomb, as well as controlling the security of its allies.

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=3838

[Menelik_II]

Is Saudi Arabia developing a nuclear option? Will we see further nuclearization of the ARabian peninsula as Iran continues to defy the UN security council?

[rex_maximus]

[IMG]

On Jan. 21, Saudi rulers favored visiting Pakistani president Gen. Pervez Musharraf with exception honors when he arrived at the outset of a tour of five Arab capitals. DEBKA-Net-Weekly described King Abdullah as personally welcoming the visitor and driving him in the royal convoy to a palace outside the capital where they were closeted alone for three hours.

:rofl:


The king also conferred on the Pakistani ruler the King Abdul Aziz Award.

:rofl:

[Menelik_II]

:rofl:



:rofl:

... what? :sarb:

What's so funny?

[dandiwal_jatt]

yo about time pakistan helps its arab breathern(sp?)

[Atharvan]

yeah pakistanis are arabs...descendents of great mohammed bin qasim(rahmatullah alaih - God's blessings upon him) who destroyed the kafir temples in sindh.

[Menelik_II]

yeah pakistanis are arabs...descendents of great mohammed bin qasim(rahmatullah alaih - God's blessings upon him) who destroyed the kafir temples in sindh.

You guys are stupid. Pakistanis are descendents of the native Indic damsels who were raped by the soldiers of the Invaders.

[Atharvan]

You guys are stupid. Pakistanis are descendents of the native Indic damsels who were raped by the soldiers of the Invaders.

No your stupid.Pakistanis are more culturally and ethnically related to middle easterns, not some dark skinned vegetarian indians. Most of the Pakistani punjabis and pathans are fairer and taller compared to Indian Hindoos or Sikhs.. its just good genes. :rofl:

[KhanNoonienSingh]

You guys are stupid. Pakistanis are descendents of the native Indic damsels who were raped by the soldiers of the Invaders.what drugs are you smoking.

Muhammad Bin Qasim conquered Sindh with the help of the Buddhist tribes (including Jatts, Bhuttos and Meds) defected to his side in large numbers.

A lot of the locals didn't like the Raja Dahir (who was Brahmin... the Brahmins stole the rulership of Sindh from the Rai Dynasty made up of Buddhist Rajputs/Jatts and made no fans).

Hajaj's next campaign was launched under the aegis of Muhammad bin Qasim. In 711 A.D Qasim assaulted Debal and upon the express orders of Al-Hajjaj exacted a bloody retribution on Debal in the freeing of both the earlier captives as well as prisoners from the previous failed campaign. Other than this instance the policy adopted is seen as generally being one of enlisting and co-opting support from both defectors as well as the defeated lords and forces. From Debal he then moved on to Nerun for supplies, where the city's Buddhist governor had acknowledged itself as a tributary of the Caliphate after the first campaign and opened the gates to the forces of the second. Qasim's armies then moved on to capture Siwistan (Sehwan) and received the alliance of various tribal chiefs and secured the surrounding regions, With whom he captured the fort at Sisam and thereby secured the regions to the west of the Indus River.

The Chachnama provides accounts of the rule by successors of the Rai Dynasty as one marked by persecution of Buddhists, Jats and Meds from the time of Chach as well as of a prophecy on the fall of Raja Dahir being a factor in swaying many defections to Qasim's army.

By enlisting the support of various local tribes, such as the Jats, Meds, Bhuttos and Buddhist rulers of Nerun, Bajhra, Kaka Kolak and Siwistan, as infantry to his predominantly cavalry army Muhammad bin Qasim defeated Dahir and captured his eastern territories for the Umayyad Caliphate.Not to mention Muhammad Bin Qasim's armies were already made up of thousands of Jatts that were captured and converted from the Persian campaign (the Raja Dahir sent them with war elephants to help the Persian Empire, but it ultimately proved fruitless).

It was these people who mixed with the Arab tribes that settled there and formed new tribes like Arain Punjabis.

[Atharvan]

lol the person who defeated the arabs was a rajput himself(bappa rawal) from mewar.

[KhanNoonienSingh]

lol the person who defeated the arabs was a rajput himself(bappa rawal) from mewar.they were kind of split up by alliances of the Hindu majorities to the north in Punjab or the Buddhist majority in Sindh. the Buddhists were the ones that allied with Qasim. the Hindu Jatts/Rajputs kept fighting the Caliphate.

[Atharvan]

they were kind of split up by alliances of the Hindu majorities to the north in Punjab or the Buddhist majority in Sindh. the Buddhists were the ones that allied with Qasim. the Hindu Jatts/Rajputs kept fighting the Caliphate.

ok i see.i was told that hindu jatts don't exist.The one's in haryana are jaats.


What I find really strange is that the majority of the Sindhi population was Buddhist, who are usually totally averse to fighting. Their religion taught them to avoid bloodshed...how come they allied with a person who put women and children to sword.How did they turn against hindus just because of one brahmin king ?all major hindu kings before the arab invasion from guptas to chalukyas to harshvardhan patronised buddhism.

[Atharvan]

A lot of the locals didn't like the Raja Dahir (who was Brahmin... the Brahmins stole the rulership of Sindh from the Rai Dynasty made up of Buddhist Rajputs/Jatts and made no fans).


didn't the rajput queen suhanadi or whatever her name was conspire with chach.so how can you say it's the brahmins fault alone.this is merely a political change and muslim kings have used similar tactics to conquer india.

[di vinci]

those pesky muslim. always want to be center of attention!!!

[KhanNoonienSingh]

didn't the rajput queen suhanadi or whatever her name was conspire with chach.so how can you say it's the brahmins fault alone.cuz they were the orchestrators and the ones who took over afterwards? you can't just pin it all on that one queen.

ok i see.i was told that hindu jatts don't exist.The one's in haryana are jaats.they did back then... the ones in Punjab anyway. i'm talking proper Jatts of all the Gotras that are still around today. they had just moved into the India area a few hundred years prior and were all over Punjab and Sindh, and the ones in Sindh followed Buddhist idealogy. Sikhism wouldn't come around for another thousand years or so.

i'm pretty sure Jaats were Jats/Jatts too in origin. that's what I've heard anyway.

What I find really strange is that the majority of the Sindhi population was Buddhist, who are usually totally averse to fighting. Their religion taught them to avoid bloodshed...how come they allied with a person who put women and children to sword.do you mean Muhammad Bin Qasim or Dahir? they turned on Dahir for a reason, the dude persecuted them and was not a just ruler. and they found Qasim to be a more fair ruler for them. so take that how you will. if you were referring to Qasim then perhaps some of the sources for that news are incorrect if it doesn't match up.

[foreverconfused]

You guys are stupid. Pakistanis are descendents of the native Indic damsels who were raped by the soldiers of the Invaders.

It's called sarcasm ;)

[Atharvan]

cuz they were the orchestrators and the ones who took over afterwards? you can't just pin it all on that one queen.

Ascension of a Brahmin king could only have occurred with the tacit support of key Rajputs(not just the rani alone) and other kshatriya segments(like jatts or lohanas) in society.bahmins dont fight.it goes against the dharma.you can't just pin it all on one community.



do you mean Muhammad Bin Qasim or Dahir? they turned on Dahir for a reason, the dude persecuted them and was not a just ruler. and they found Qasim to be a more fair ruler for them. so take that how you will. if you were referring to Qasim then perhaps some of the sources for that news are incorrect if it doesn't match up.


i mean mohammed bin qasim.It does not appear as though the advent of Islam/qasim in sindh actually liberated the most oppressed Jatis.The condition of sindh's backward castes is just as bad it was 1200 years ago.Most of them are still hindu.They continued to face discrimination at the hands of both Hindus and Muslims.
http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-sikand060304.htm

How is imposing jizya on hindus,buddhists and jains fair ?in Multan, according to the chach-nama six thousand warriors were put to death by qasim's men, and all their relations and dependents including women and children were taken as slaves.there was a massive jauhar ceremony where the women threw themselves in fire after the fort was captured.Would you call this fair ?

[KhanNoonienSingh]

Ascension of a Brahmin king could only have occurred with the tacit support of key Rajputs(not just the rani alone) and other kshatriya segments(like jatts or lohanas) in society.brahmins dont fight.it goes against the dharma.you can't just pin it all on one community.jatts still do pin it on brahmins. and raja dahir died fighting in battle. lawlz.

i mean mohammed bin qasim.It does not appear as though the advent of Islam/qasim in sindh actually liberated the most oppressed Jatis.The condition of sindh's backward castes is just as bad it was 1200 years ago.Most of them are still hindu.They continued to face discrimination at the hands of both Hindus and Muslims.
http://www.countercurrents.org/dalit-sikand060304.htmi never said Jatis (castes), nor did I ever talk about them. i said Jatts, and Rajputs. they aren't a 'lower caste' (technically not even a caste, they just fit under kshatriya), and mixed into what is now the Pakistani Punjabi population. not Sindhi.

i have no idea what the other Sindhi castes were doing when Qasim invaded. if they didn't ally themselves with him, i wouldn't have expected them to get much favorable treatment.

How is imposing jizya on hindus,buddhists and jains fair ?this is common sense, after i answer this question i expect you to never bring it up ever again.

governments TAX their citizens. Muslims have to pay Zakat, as well as other proprietary taxes set up by the governments which ruled them.

non-Muslims had to pay ONE tax. Jizya. which also freed them from having to commit to military service. if non-Muslims did commit to military service, they were exempt from Jizya.

despite that, the Jizya was often the highest source of income for the government because the locals in new conquered areas were often the richest and most populous. and the Muslim tax of Zakat wasn't government property, but was charity... earmarked for social wealth distribution.

and lastly, you should build a time machine, go back, and ask the people who allied with Qasim why they thought Jizya was more fair and preferrable to living under Raja Dahir.

in Multan, according to the chach-nama six thousand warriors were put to death by qasim's men, and all their relations and dependents including women and children were taken as slaves.there was a massive jauhar ceremony where the women threw themselves in fire after the fort was captured.Would you call this fair ?i don't know why they were killed, go look it up or research or something. the taking of women/children as slaves was a common practice, you're not gonna guilt-trip any sympathy out of anyone with that... everyone in the world did it.

as for women burning themselves alive, that sucks. but i'm not a hindu, go ask someone else about that.

[Atharvan]

jatts still do pin it on brahmins. and raja dahir died fighting in battle. lawlz.

yeah i know there has been animosity between Jatts and Brahmins from historical times... i still find it hard to believe that handful of brahmins can usurp an entire kingdom dominated by martial races as jatts,medes,bhuttos and rajputs.and that too to suggest that Brahminical hegemony was established in a matter of just a few decade without any opposition from them is inconceivable.


i never said Jatis (castes), nor did I ever talk about them. i said Jatts, and Rajputs. they aren't a 'lower caste' (technically not even a caste, they just fit under kshatriya), and mixed into what is now the Pakistani Punjabi population. not Sindhi.

i have no idea what the other Sindhi castes were doing when Qasim invaded. if they didn't ally themselves with him, i wouldn't have expected them to get much favorable treatment.

jatts have never been seen as kshatriyas.ever since the time they arrived in india the brahmins(who had acquired the monopoly over the religious affairs post mauryan era ) applied the "shudra/mleccha" label on them.Most of the dominant agrarian castes(including powerful dynasties like marathas and mauryas) throughout India have been classified as so-called shudras.but I do think it doesn't make any sense on the ground..by nature they are kshatriyas.




i don't know why they were killed, go look it up or research or something. the taking of women/children as slaves was a common practice, you're not gonna guilt-trip any sympathy out of anyone with that... everyone in the world did it..


as for women burning themselves alive, that sucks. but i'm not a hindu, go ask someone else about that.

how is taking of women/children as slaves fair ??one can understand if soldiers are taken as slaves but sending women to caliph's harems as sex slaves is barbarity.
women burning has nothing to do with hinduism.The women commited jauhar because it was pretty obvious that their honour would be lost once the arabs were done fighting with dahir's men.

[Space-Cowboy]

I think it's pretty fair to say that that Wiki article is biased. [Wiki is never a good source as a scholarly apparatus anyway]. The Buddhists never 'allied' themselves with Qasim; however they vocally did oppose the heirarchical brahminism of the time. Ironically, Qasim did have many Hindu allies of non-brahministic sects. Unfortunately these Hindus would soon find out that Qasim's rule was no better than the brahministic rule.

And generally Buddhist are averse to violence; as such the 'conquest'/'imperialism' mentality is abhorred. However, Self Defense, under extreme circumstances are common-- self defense stemming from Martial Arts [Kung Fu/Gung Fu, etc.] which are generally used for meditative purposes; which is why the Shaolin Monks, though observing a strict Ahimsa [non-violence] code, are also the most powerful warriors the world has ever known... as observed in many occasions of self defense when such extreme circumstances did occur.

[Space-Cowboy]

ok i see.i was told that hindu jatts don't exist.The one's in haryana are jaats.


What I find really strange is that the majority of the Sindhi population was Buddhist, who are usually totally averse to fighting. Their religion taught them to avoid bloodshed...how come they allied with a person who put women and children to sword.How did they turn against hindus just because of one brahmin king ?all major hindu kings before the arab invasion from guptas to chalukyas to harshvardhan patronised buddhism.


Exactly... Buddhism/Jainism was seen as part and parcel of the SubContinental heritage along with Hinduism... There was no religious divide that people in the west make it out to be.


But Buddhists did engage in self defense when forced[hence, Shaolin Monks].

[khanbaba_]

The Buddhists never 'allied' themselves with Qasim; however they vocally did oppose the heirarchical brahminism of the time.
Read Chach Nama, the oldest history of Sind. where is talks about how many Buddhists rulers sided with Muahmmed bin Qasim and fought along him against Raja Dahir.

[Space-Cowboy]

Read Chach Nama, the oldest history of Sind. where is talks about how many Buddhists rulers sided with Muahmmed bin Qasim and fought along him against Raja Dahir.


Chachnama is hardly an unbiased source either.

There's tons of other accounts of the events:

http://yangtze.cs.uiuc.edu/~jamali/sindh/story/node8.html

^^^I personally look at that one, which, from what I can gather, suggests that the Buddists, at best [on the non-political scene] only really vocally supported Qasim/opposed brahmins... and not physically.