Indian army chief set to head to Russia for visit to reaffirm ties

[Cunard]

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nws/th/afp_lo_1.gif

Indian army chief set to head to Russia for visit to reaffirm ties

Sat Aug 19, 8:41 AM ET



NEW DELHI (AFP) - India's army chief of staff is heading to Russia to reaffirm India's continuing long-term strategic partnership with its old ally despite fast expanding defence ties with the United States.


http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20060819/capt.sge.ftk70.190806124055.photo00.photo.default-373x512.jpg
India's army chief of staff is heading to Russia to reaffirm India's continuing long-term strategic partnership with its old ally despite fast expanding defence ties with the United States.(AFP/File/Raveendran )

General Joginder Jaswant Singh will hold talks with senior military officials, including the Chief of the General Staff of the Defence Ministry, and visit several military bases during his week-long visit, the Press Trust of India said Saturday.

Officials say the trip is part of customary "military-diplomatic" ties between the two nations which used to be on the same side of the fence during the Cold War, the agency said.

Moscow remains India's biggest arms supplier despite New Delhi's rapidly warming relationship with Washington.

But the visit has assumed added significance amid reports Russia is concerned that India is increasingly looking to other countries such as Israel, its second-largest arms supplier, the United States and France for defence goods.

Singh will be pressing for strong guarantees from Russia on maintenance of delivery schedules of contracted weapon systems, uninterrupted supply of spares and product support, issues that have become sources of concern in recent years.

The Indian Army still had over 80 per cent Soviet or Russian origin arms in its arsenal, the Press Trust of India said.

Russia is keen on winning a 6.5-billion-dollar contract to sell 126 multi-role combat aircraft to the Indian Airforce and has pitted its MiG-35 jet against the US F-16 and F/A-18, French Rafale, Swedish JAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon in the contest.

The two countries earlier this year agreed to hold joint wargames to enhance cooperation in combating terror threats and in rescue operations in the case of natural disasters.

India's army chief is also expected to discuss a joint exercise among Indian, Russian and NATO special forces planned for next year on Russian soil.

[Spiky]

wow, I dint know that Israel was the second largest arms supplier to India*...coz I thot it was france.

[ThomasMcCabe]

wow, I dint know that Israel was the second largest arms supplier to India*...coz I thot it was france.
I was not sure about that. Most of the Israeli arms are in the area of avionics, guidance systems and radars. Not things that make it big on the newspapers. But yeah collaboration between the two countries is growing as it should. India can play a vital role as intermediary between Israel and the other Arab/Muslim countries with which it has a good relationship.

[paulie walnuts]

wow, I dint know that Israel was the second largest arms supplier to India*.it's not.

[ThomasMcCabe]

it's not.
Actually it is.

[Cunard]

it's not.

France was number 2...but Israel over took them in 2003-2004

[ThomasMcCabe]

This is from one of India's leading Business dailies. The daily has almost impeccable credentials. It belongs to a left leaning newspaper, The Hindu, so ....

In the Arms of Israel (http://www.business-standard.com/opinionanalysis/storypage.php?leftnm=4&subLeft=2&chklogin=N&autono=101550&tab=r)

Ajai Shukla: In the arms of Israel
BROADSWORD
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi August 15, 2006
Long before the CPI (M)’s recent demand to scrap India’s defence ties with Israel, governments in New Delhi have finessed difficult questions about that growing military relationship, with politically correct formulations in support of the Palestinian cause. But with Israel’s latest foray into Lebanon, the questions could get more searching and, with Tel Aviv already frustrated at India’s reluctance to hold hands in public, there is the potential for growing discord.

Both sides truthfully aver that the military relationship is separate from the political one. But of all commercial dealings, arms relationships are by far the most political. A country can trade in food grains, software or leather for purely economic considerations; Soviet Union gas supplies warmed West Europe through the coldest days of the Cold War. But arms supplies, by their very nature, extend beyond the economic realm into the political. Israeli arms sales have always rested on a common security perception with Raisina Hill: Islamic extremism is the favourite nightmare of decision-makers on both sides. But this security convergence has never translated into open political support for Israel; on July 26, India’s Parliament strongly condemned the Israeli bombing of Lebanon. The arms relationship lives in the shadow of this contradiction between security convergence and political divergence.

The numbers, though, make fine reading for Israel. In less than a decade, its arms sales to India have made Israel the fifth-biggest arms supplier in the world. Only Russia sells more weaponry in India, because the Indian military is locked into a dependency: our vast arsenal of traditionally Soviet-origin weaponry must be replaced or upgraded with systems that match its technical characteristics. In practical terms an armoured division equipped with T-72 tanks cannot be upgraded with British Challenger or American Abrams tanks. Only the Russian T-90 (in effect, a new-generation T-72) has the communications links, operating characteristics and logistical similarities that enable it to function seamlessly alongside that armoured division’s other weapons systems.

In penetrating the Indian market, Israel has used the only workable strategy: riding piggyback on the Russian bear. India’s major weapons platforms—tanks, air defence guns, warships, and fighters—will remain principally Russian for at least two decades. For Israel, that’s not a problem; its defence industries do not specialise in major systems. Instead, Israel swells its bottom line in India by giving a new lease of life to outdated Russian systems. The principle is simple: a major platform, say, a Russian MIG-21 fighter, will continue to fly for up to three decades. Its fighting capability—which depends on its radars, avionics and missile systems—will get outdated in half that time. Replacing those with state-of-the-art systems (retro-fitment and mid-life upgrades are the technical terms) often costs more than what the fighter did when it was bought. It is here that Israel excels. Cash registers in Tel Aviv are still ringing from upgrading India’s old MIG-21s into the Bison fighter, now usable for another 15 years, and from transforming India’s vintage Russian 130 mm artillery guns into modern 155 mm howitzers.

Working to Israel’s advantage are the mix-and-match deals now on offer in the global arms supermarkets. India may opt for a mazboot-sasta-aur-tikau Russian platform—a T-90 tank, a Krivak-class frigate, or a Su-30MKI fighter—but it no longer has to buy the less-than-cutting-edge electronics, surveillance and missile systems that Russia fits. After problems with the T-90 night vision and fire control equipment and the Krivak anti-missile defences, India’s military is wary of Russian electronics. So the three new frigates that India is buying from Russia will be fitted with an Israeli anti-missile system: the Extended Range Barak (ERB), which Tel Aviv says it will co-develop with India.

The agreement to co-develop the ERB shows how Israel is learning from Russia in exploiting the less-than-ethical working of India’s defence production organisation. When Russia wanted to bypass the unpredictable realm of competitive bidding in capturing the Indian market for its Yakhont cruise missile, Moscow signed up with Delhi to “co-develop” the Brahmos. Billed as a triumph of joint development, the Brahmos is little more than the Russian Yakhont with a joint label. Similarly, the Extended Range Barak, “jointly developed” by India and Israel, will be an up-rated version of the old Barak missile, with India firmly locked into the deal.

Israel’s greatest achievement could be its entry into the innermost portals of Indian defence: the shadowy anti-missile defence programme, which detects and shoots down incoming ballistic missiles (presumably armed with nuclear warheads) before they hit Indian targets. India has bought billion-dollar Green Pine radars from Israel that already scan threatening Pakistani launch areas, such as a 500-km sector around Islamabad. Now, if America clears the sale, India could spend more billions on Israeli Arrow missiles, which will severely erode Pakistan’s nuclear deterrent, perhaps forcing Islamabad to step up its production of nuclear bombs.

With billions of dollars in the balance, Israel has chosen to quietly accept being politically spurned by India. But with the two establishments clearly in sync on the military and the strategic fronts, Israel could be correctly calculating that New Delhi’s public distance from Tel Aviv will inevitably diminish, gradually transforming mistress into wife.

[JOHNNY K-BAR]

Russia is keen on winning a 6.5-billion-dollar contract to sell 126 multi-role combat aircraft to the Indian Airforce and has pitted its MiG-35 jet against the US F-16 and F/A-18, French Rafale, Swedish JAS-39 Gripen and the Eurofighter Typhoon in the contest.


You think Russia will win the contract?

[ThomasMcCabe]

You think Russia will win the contract?
I dont think so dude. I think India is very keen to go closer to the US. They might in fact pressure the US on the nuclear deal using the planes as a bargaining chip. But things could change. I think right now the F-18 is the front runner.

However the US is not seen as reliable by Indians as it has supported Pakistan against India in the past and can disrupt any arms / spares. Look at what the US did to Pakistan too with the F-16s that were paid for. That being said, Boeing might offer a full technology transfer and licensed production to snag the deal. The US is shifting to the F-22 as far as I know and so this should not be a big problem.

[Indian1986]

India needs to move on and abandon the old bloc mentality(Hindi-Russie bhai bhai) and the prejudices against west inherited from the era of cold war. Great changes have taken place since 1991.They've been supplying the entire third world with their rotten weapons for abt 50-60 years and india is the leading buyer of these vintage russian arms that should be in the museum.Our vast arsenal of traditionally Soviet-origin weaponry must be replaced or upgraded otherwise things like those mig-21 crashes and bofors scam will keep happening.
:(

[ThomasMcCabe]

India needs to move on and abandon the old bloc mentality(Hindi-Russie bhai bhai) and the prejudices against west inherited from the era of cold war.

That is true.


Great changes have taken place since 1991.They've been supplying the entire third world with their rotten weapons for abt 50-60 years and india is the leading buyer of these vintage russian arms that should be in the museum.

Not all Russian weapons are vintage. What about the SU-30? It is our politicians who make silly decisions.


Our vast arsenal of traditionally Soviet-origin weaponry must be replaced or upgraded otherwise things like those mig-21 crashes and bofors scam will keep happening.
:(Mig-21 crashes happen because the govt cannot afford (does not want) to have AJTs. The Bofors is Swedish and one of the reasons why we won Kargil. But otherwise yeah. IMHO, we should be armed with Indian weapons - one day we will get there. :)

[Indian_Eyess]

I dont think so dude. I think India is very keen to go closer to the US. They might in fact pressure the US on the nuclear deal using the planes as a bargaining chip. But things could change. I think right now the F-18 is the front runner.

However the US is not seen as reliable by Indians as it has supported Pakistan against India in the past and can disrupt any arms / spares. Look at what the US did to Pakistan too with the F-16s that were paid for. That being said, Boeing might offer a full technology transfer and licensed production to snag the deal. The US is shifting to the F-22 as far as I know and so this should not be a big problem.
I think it will, considering that Russian air-craft such as the MiG-35 is an impressive plane with brilliant avionics and and an advanced radar system. Not to mention, India is used to the MiG system as it has hundreds in its arsenal. The F-16 is starting to get outdated, but the F/A-18 is a good competition for the MiG-35. While the MiG-35 is land based, the F/A-18 is a carrier aircraft and India is looking to expand its navy in order to expand their regional powerbase. The F-22 right now isnt on the market yet, because they're extremely expensive to operate and maintain, even for the United States. But like you said, Russia is a reliable source and I think the Russians will win the deal.

[Indian_Eyess]

Russian weapons are not outdated. In fact the new weapons they have are advanced and very good. In fact, even close allies of the US like Saudi Arabia is eyeing Russian air-craft and weaponry. The Russians have SU-37's, Su-35's, etc. To throw Russia away as a primary source of weapons would be extremely foolish on the Indian military command's part.

[Space-Cowboy]

Russian weapons are not outdated. In fact the new weapons they have are advanced and very good. In fact, even close allies of the US like Saudi Arabia is eyeing Russian air-craft and weaponry. The Russians have SU-37's, Su-35's, etc. To throw Russia away as a primary source of weapons would be extremely foolish on the Indian military command's part.


India should pretty much get them where they can, U.S., Russia, Israel.... and then simply put that IIT inginuity to it and improve on what they've been given ;)

It's only fair...... China's been quite a few innovations over the last decade militarily... :p

[Indian_Eyess]

India should pretty much get them where they can, U.S., Russia, Israel.... and then simply put that IIT inginuity to it and improve on what they've been given ;)

It's only fair...... China's been quite a few innovations over the last decade militarily... :p
I agree with you on the first statement and I do think India is doing that. I dont think India cares for Israel nor do I think they care for America or anyone. India cares for India and that is a smart thing. For the most part, India does have contracts with Russia in which they buy Russian weapons and add a little bit of their own innovation and I think they'll continue to do this.

Chinese weapons have gotten ALOT better, but they still have a long way to go, they're good initially but screw up early, they're not good long term weapons.

[Space-Cowboy]

I agree with you on the first statement and I do think India is doing that. I dont think India cares for Israel nor do I think they care for America or anyone. India cares for India and that is a smart thing. For the most part, India does have contracts with Russia in which they buy Russian weapons and add a little bit of their own innovation and I think they'll continue to do this.

Chinese weapons have gotten ALOT better, but they still have a long way to go, they're good initially but screw up early, they're not good long term weapons.


True..... but there is a very real prediction that China will surpass U.S. in terms of military might in the next 50-100 years... ..... and India is right there to build already strengthening ties with China... :p

[Indian1986]

True..... but there is a very real prediction that China will surpass U.S. in terms of military might in the next 50-100 years... ..... and India is right there to build already strengthening ties with China... :p


:roflbow:

40 years ago India fell for the same trick China when Mao Zedong came to india screaming "Hindi-Chini-Bhai-Bhai," but later they back-stabbed India in 1962. They slaughterd india in that war and thanks to Nehrus foolish tactics we lost the war...what's more shameful is that a tiny war stricken country like vietnam thrashed red china in 1975 but india couldn't.... It is time we worked together with tibetans and west for the Independence of Tibet and for a safe and secure border for India.Tibet is a buffer between china and india...chinese must not be trusted under any circumstances..And if your remember correctly india's test in 1974 was in response to chinese test in 61...it had nothing to do with pakistan ...china is the only real enemy india has..

[ThomasMcCabe]

:roflbow:
40 years ago India fell for the same tric ...it had nothing to do with pakistan ...china is the only real enemy india has..
Correct. Beware the dragon's embrace.

[rex_maximus]

India needs to move on and abandon the old bloc mentality(Hindi-Russie bhai bhai) and the prejudices against west inherited from the era of cold war. Great changes have taken place since 1991.They've been supplying the entire third world with their rotten weapons for abt 50-60 years and india is the leading buyer of these vintage russian arms that should be in the museum.Our vast arsenal of traditionally Soviet-origin weaponry must be replaced or upgraded otherwise things like those mig-21 crashes and bofors scam will keep happening.
:(

i'm not too sure about that. the 'hindi-russie bhai bhai' adage is still good, because it is reciprocated by the russian public. in fact, the russian public feels more kinship to the indian public than vice-versa (thanks in part to the huge and long standing popularity of bollywood in Russia).

apart from the long standing trust (which is a valuable asset for india), one cannot overlook Russia's recently found eminence in aerospace, as well as their ability to produce and sell at low cost.

all in all, I think this is a very smart step. Of course, India WILL purchase what it can from US, Israel, and others...but giving Russia a greater share of the market and goodwill steps like these help India cement relationships with the one reliable superpower buddy that it can definately use.

[rex_maximus]

:roflbow:

40 years ago India fell for the same trick China when Mao Zedong came to india screaming "Hindi-Chini-Bhai-Bhai," but later they back-stabbed India in 1962. They slaughterd india in that war and thanks to Nehrus foolish tactics we lost the war...what's more shameful is that a tiny war stricken country like vietnam thrashed red china in 1975 but india couldn't.... It is time we worked together with tibetans and west for the Independence of Tibet and for a safe and secure border for India.Tibet is a buffer between china and india...chinese must not be trusted under any circumstances..And if your remember correctly india's test in 1974 was in response to chinese test in 61...it had nothing to do with pakistan ...china is the only real enemy india has..

true. the chinese are extremely sly, and will never ever accept india at their own level.

btw, in vietnam, the chinese army faced guerilla warfare, hence why it fared poory. as has become all too clear now...with sri lanka, iraq, and now lebanon, guerilla warfare is the way to go against a large military.

[counter strike]

How modern is the Indian Air Force by the way? I know pakistan have recently accuired the f-16's and JF-17's

[ThomasMcCabe]

How modern is the Indian Air Force by the way? I know pakistan have recently accuired the f-16's and JF-17's
It is a mix. There are Mig 21s - the same platform as the JF-17 - which form the bulk of the Indian Airforce's strike force. These are old airframes but are being upgraded. There are Mirage 2000s, a few squadrons of Jaguars - these being the Western fighters in the IAF's inventory. I am not too sure about whether the MiG 23s and 27s have been retired. The MiG 25s have been retired. The biggest punch in the IAF's fist come from the MiG 29s (not too sure about the numbers but these are supposed to be more than a match for even the F-15s, in good hands) and the SU-30 MKIs (there are 2-3 squadrons at present and the IAF is goign to receive about 120 over the next few years). Right now the SU-30 MKI is the most lethal piece of machinery in the skies over the Indian sub continent, most of South East Asia and even China. India is currently on the hunt for an air superiority fighter / interceptor to take over the role of the MiG 21s.

In terms of AWACS and electronics there is a lot of scope for improvement.

[rex_maximus]

Su-30 MKI kicks all ass....

3000 km+ range, 12 hard points, multi-target tracking and attack capabilities, beyond visual range attack capabilities, multi-axis thrust vectoring... :rambo:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Current/Su-30/Su-30h.jpg

http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/pix/su30mk-004-2.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Su-30a1.jpg

one of the best looking fighter aircraft design ever, imo...

[ThomasMcCabe]

one of the best looking fighter aircraft design ever, imo...
Yep.

[Indian_Eyess]

It is a mix. There are Mig 21s - the same platform as the JF-17 - which form the bulk of the Indian Airforce's strike force. These are old airframes but are being upgraded. There are Mirage 2000s, a few squadrons of Jaguars - these being the Western fighters in the IAF's inventory. I am not too sure about whether the MiG 23s and 27s have been retired. The MiG 25s have been retired. The biggest punch in the IAF's fist come from the MiG 29s (not too sure about the numbers but these are supposed to be more than a match for even the F-15s, in good hands) and the SU-30 MKIs (there are 2-3 squadrons at present and the IAF is goign to receive about 120 over the next few years). Right now the SU-30 MKI is the most lethal piece of machinery in the skies over the Indian sub continent, most of South East Asia and even China. India is currently on the hunt for an air superiority fighter / interceptor to take over the role of the MiG 21s.

In terms of AWACS and electronics there is a lot of scope for improvement.
Adding to that, the Indian Air Force is eyeing the 'newly' released Su-37s, they surpass almost all other Russian and even most American aircraft in terms of air superiority.

[ThomasMcCabe]

Adding to that, the Indian Air Force is eyeing the 'newly' released Su-37s, they surpass almost all other Russian and even most American aircraft in terms of air superiority.
Interesting. Did not know this.

[Indian_Eyess]

Su-37
http://altnet.ru/~military/avia/istrib/Su-37/Su-37(4).jpg
Wing Span- 15.16 m / 49 ft 9 in
Length- 21.94 m / 72 ft
Height- 6.84 m / 22 ft 5 in
Weight- 40,565 lb empty / 74,956 lb max. take off
Engine- Two Lyulka AL-37FU vectored-thrust afterburning turbofans, 30,855 lb thrust each
Maximum speed- 2,440 km/h / 1,516 mph

[Indian_Eyess]

Indian Air Force Fleet

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units/Fleet.html

[rex_maximus]

Indian Air Force Fleet

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Units/Fleet.html

for a second i thought you were referring to the su-47 berkut...the only forward swept wing fighter in the world...

http://www.aeronautics.ru/sukhoi/s-37_berkut/images_main/control02berkut.jpg

that's one badass fighter...7 onboard avionics computers, with 2 dedicated just to keep the darn thing aloft...

darn...wish we were eyeing those... :(

[Indian_Eyess]

for a second i thought you were referring to the su-47 berkut...the only forward swept wing fighter in the world...

that's one badass fighter...7 onboard avionics computers, with 2 dedicated just to keep the darn thing aloft...

darn...wish we were eyeing those... :(
WOW, I would have an orgasm just looking at one in person.

lol, but yeah, I was talking about the Su-37 'Terminator'

[rex_maximus]

WOW, I would have an orgasm just looking at one in person.


lol...i agree

:p

[Space-Cowboy]

:p i agree


P.S.... Indian Armed Forces > Israel Armed Forces [overall, numbers and everything]




........ but don't let Cunard find out........ :nervous: :p

[rex_maximus]

P.S.... Indian Armed Forces > Israel Armed Forces [overall, numbers and everything]




........ but don't let Cunard find out........ :nervous: :p

weyell...it would be a complicated comparison...specially when you factor their 450+ alleged nukes.

but in terms of numbers of personell and weaponry/ordanance...i'd agree.

[Space-Cowboy]

weyell...it would be a complicated comparison...specially when you factor their 450+ alleged nukes.

but in terms of numbers of personell and weaponry/ordanance...i'd agree.


True true...... neither side would launch a Nuke considering both would be annihilated.... along with the surrounding nations.... :p

[rex_maximus]

while we're on the topic of Indian Armed Forces...check out this video of the 155 mm bofors...70+ KM range (thats an artillary shell, NOT a rocket)...remotely operable....


the automatic reload looks kickass...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGtWjWOWCR8

[Space-Cowboy]

while we're on the topic of Indian Armed Forces...check out this video of the 155 mm bofors...70+ KM range (thats an artillary shell, NOT a rocket)...remotely operable....


the automatic reload looks kickass...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGtWjWOWCR8


That looks like a Siege Tank from StarCraft :D

[Indian_Eyess]

P.S.... Indian Armed Forces > Israel Armed Forces [overall, numbers and everything]


........ but don't let Cunard find out........ :nervous: :p
oh, without a doubt dude. Considering also that I was watching a report that said that now India has the strongest Navy in all of Asia, including the Middle East with China rushing forward close behind, lets not forget that the Indian military in its size itself could easily beat Israel.

[Space-Cowboy]

oh, without a doubt dude. Considering also that I was watching a report that said that now India has the strongest Navy in all of Asia, including the Middle East with China rushing forward close behind, lets not forget that the Indian military in its size itself could easily beat Israel.


Dude.... not so loud!!!..... Cunard might hear us!!! :nervous:






:lol: :p

[Indian_Eyess]

while we're on the topic of Indian Armed Forces...check out this video of the 155 mm bofors...70+ KM range (thats an artillary shell, NOT a rocket)...remotely operable....


the automatic reload looks kickass...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGtWjWOWCR8
lol, one thing about those videos on Youtube on the Indian Armed forces that annoy me most is the use of GAY Bollywood music and sometimes hardcore rock music on the Indian military. I've hear ALOT of good Indian military music that could fit that description, I wish I could make slideshows and movies like that, once I learn how, I hope to make one. :D

[Indian_Eyess]

Dude.... not so loud!!!..... Cunard might hear us!!! :nervous:




:lol: :p
oops!

[Space-Cowboy]

oops!


:rofl:

[ThomasMcCabe]

Regarding the comparison between the Israeli military and the Indian, there is no doubt who is stronger. I think even Cunard will agree. The Israeli Army is made for fighting on a small strip of land and can never withstand masses of armor and men. They would be annihilated by sheer force of numbers.

In WWII, the strength of numbers was chillingly displayed by the Red Army against the Germans. For while, the Germans were technically superior in fighting, they were no match for the sheer numbers (and of course the biting cold).

[NYzNiCCa]

can someone please break down Indian armys numbers by religion? how many are hindu/sikh/muslim/others. Thanks

[Space-Cowboy]

Regarding the comparison between the Israeli military and the Indian, there is no doubt who is stronger. I think even Cunard will agree. The Israeli Army is made for fighting on a small strip of land and can never withstand masses of armor and men. They would be annihilated by sheer force of numbers.

In WWII, the strength of numbers was chillingly displayed by the Red Army against the Germans. For while, the Germans were technically superior in fighting, they were no match for the sheer numbers (and of course the biting cold).


Germans were better trained than the Soviets? :sarb:

[Indian1986]

Indian soldiers are selected on the basis of martial classes and not religion.The British designated the Gurkhas(Hindus), Garhwalis(Hindus), Rajputs(Hindus and Muslims) , Jats, (Muslim, Sikh & Hindu) ,Rohilla Pathans(Muslims) , Marathas(Hindus), Mahars(Hindus,Christians and Muslims), and Kodavas(hindus) as belonging to martial races.And Most of those regiments are mixed up you have rajputs in madras regiment and biharis in jatt regiment.

[Space-Cowboy]

Indian soldiers are selected on the basis of martial classes and not religion.The British designated the Gurkhas(Hindus), Garhwalis(Hindus), Rajputs(Hindus and Muslims) , Jats, (Muslim, Sikh & Hindu) ,Rohilla Pathans(Muslims) , Marathas(Hindus), Mahars(Hindus,Christians and Muslims), and Kodavas(hindus) as belonging to martial races.And Most of those regiments are mixed up you have rajputs in madras regiment and biharis in jatt regiment.


Aren't Ghurkhas= (Hindus + Buddhists) ?

[Indian1986]

Aren't Ghurkhas= (Hindus + Buddhists) ?

No...Most of them are hardcore hindus who worship kali.Gurkhas take their name from hindu warrior-saint Guru Gorakhnath.Indian buddhists barring a few ladakhis do not join army because they are against killing.Even the kukri used by the Gurkhas, is the hindu katar with typical triangular blade.

[Space-Cowboy]

No...Most of them are hardcore hindus who worship kali.Gurkhas take their name from hindu warrior-saint Guru Gorakhnath.Indian buddhists barring a few ladakhis do not join army because they are against killing.Even the kukri used by the Gurkhas, is the hindu katar with typical triangular blade.


Damn, we need more Buddhists in the army...... Shaolin style :rambo:

:p

[ThomasMcCabe]

Germans were better trained than the Soviets? :sarb:
I thought that was common knowledge. Stalin had purged his best officers in the 1930s.

[Indian_Eyess]

can someone please break down Indian armys numbers by religion? how many are hindu/sikh/muslim/others. Thanks
The Indian government has refused to break down the numbers according to religion or ethnicity simply because it sees it as unecessary. I guess its also becuse it doesnt want to alienate any groups like Muslims, Buddhists, etc.

[Indian_Eyess]

Indian soldiers are selected on the basis of martial classes and not religion.The British designated the Gurkhas(Hindus), Garhwalis(Hindus), Rajputs(Hindus and Muslims) , Jats, (Muslim, Sikh & Hindu) ,Rohilla Pathans(Muslims) , Marathas(Hindus), Mahars(Hindus,Christians and Muslims), and Kodavas(hindus) as belonging to martial races.And Most of those regiments are mixed up you have rajputs in madras regiment and biharis in jatt regiment.
You forgot the Bengal regiment which was mostly Hindu and Muslim.

[Indian_Eyess]

Damn, we need more Buddhists in the army...... Shaolin style :rambo:

:p
Shaolin monks are fucking bad ass :rockon:

[ThomasMcCabe]

The Indian government has refused to break down the numbers according to religion or ethnicity simply because it sees it as unecessary. I guess its also becuse it doesnt want to alienate any groups like Muslims, Buddhists, etc.Correct. But I believe that by proportion of the total population Sikhs have the highest representation.

[Indian_Eyess]

Correct. But I believe that by proportion of the total population Sikhs have the highest representation.
I think its a close contest between Sikhs and Hindus, but I wouldnt be surprised if Sikhs comprised the majority.

[ThomasMcCabe]

You forgot the Bengal regiment which was mostly Hindu and Muslim.
I have stated somewhere on this forum that one of the regiments we had met on the IB with Pakistan was totally Muslim. I think they were 12 Bihar. Regiments typically were made up of people from roundabout the same village/locality and hence the religious homogeneity, though seeming artificially maintained was actually quite normal.

[ThomasMcCabe]

I think its a close contest between Sikhs and Hindus, but I wouldnt be surprised if Sikhs comprised the majority.It may be now.

[Indian_Eyess]

I have stated somewhere on this forum that one of the regiments we had met on the IB with Pakistan was totally Muslim. I think they were 12 Bihar. Regiments typically were made up of people from roundabout the same village/locality and hence the religious homogeneity, though seeming artificially maintained was actually quite normal.
oh ok, thats interesting, I didnt know that :)

[Space-Cowboy]

..... hope for the day when 'men' will be replaced by robots and mechs and we won't need to have the 'military representation by ethnicity and religion' debate anymore :p

[Space-Cowboy]

I thought that was common knowledge. Stalin had purged his best officers in the 1930s.


I'm well aware of Stalin's purging.... but that still says nothing about the average Soviet soldier v.s. the average German soldier.... Maybe Nazi Germany had the upper hand in the beginning, but by 1944 isn't it true that Soviets came in from the east and pretty much decimated Germany and walked all over Berlin? :sarb:

[Indian_Eyess]

..... hope for the day when 'men' will be replaced by robots and mechs and we won't need to have the 'military representation by ethnicity and religion' debate anymore :p
I hope for the day that man will never have to fight wars, as unrealistic as that may be. replacing war with robots will desensitize man to violence and will remove humanity from a soldier.

[ThomasMcCabe]

oh ok, thats interesting, I didnt know that :)Any time I meet a person in India complaining about Muslims I give them that example. Did you know that the tenth winner of the PVC (India's highest gallantry award) and the first in the 65 war against Pakistan was a Muslim - Abdul Hamid. He was responsible for singly taking on 4 tanks and knocking off two. The sad part is that he is the only Muslim on that list. Muslim representation in the Indian Armed Forces remains disproportionately low. It should increase and I hope it does so.

[NYzNiCCa]

The Indian government has refused to break down the numbers according to religion or ethnicity simply because it sees it as unecessary. I guess its also becuse it doesnt want to alienate any groups like Muslims, Buddhists, etc.

oh ok....I just wanted to know if Sikhs outnumber Hindus...but oh well.

[dandiwal_jatt]

oh ok....I just wanted to know if Sikhs outnumber Hindus...but oh well.
u mean proportion wise or overall?
cuz overall obviously there are more hindus

[paulie walnuts]

I think its a close contest between Sikhs and Hindus, but I wouldnt be surprised if Sikhs comprised the majority.lol dude, they're nowhere close to the majority.

sikhs comprise about 12% of the army.

given that they comprise only 2% of the population, this is still a very impressive figure. in my opinion, the far more impressive statistic is that sikhs comprise nearly 1/4th of the army's officers.

in terms of proportion, sikhs have a whopping 6x multiplier. hindus are roughly at 1x.

of course, the sikh overrepresentation is balanced out by the muslim underrepresentation.

[ThomasMcCabe]

in terms of proportion, sikhs have a whopping 6x multiplier. hindus are roughly at 1x.

of course, the sikh overrepresentation is balanced out by the muslim underrepresentation.
You put it so well. Exactly what I wanted to say here -


Correct. But I believe that by proportion of the total population Sikhs have the highest representation.

Missed a few commas I guess. Where did you get those numbers from?

[paulie walnuts]

You put it so well. Exactly what I wanted to say here -



Missed a few commas I guess. Where did you get those numbers from?from ex-COAS general malik, speaking in unofficial capacity.

actually, i slightly misquoted him....i think he said 12-15%.

[ThomasMcCabe]

from ex-COAS general malik, speaking in unofficial capacity.

actually, i slightly misquoted him....i think he said 12-15%.
You serious? :neutral:

[paulie walnuts]

You serious? :neutral:yeah, i met the dude a few years ago.

he was actually giving a speech at an event organized by some south asia scholars. during the q&a, somebody brought up the army census issue (this was when the controversy was in its earliest stages) and was asking about discrimination against muslims by the army.

he seemed to take great offense to any such implication and gave a very comprehensive response about how the army is extremely secular and doesn't discriminate based on religion, etc., etc....and he explained how breakdowns by religion would simply be misleading to the public (which is very true).

[rex_maximus]

lol, one thing about those videos on Youtube on the Indian Armed forces that annoy me most is the use of GAY Bollywood music and sometimes hardcore rock music on the Indian military. I've hear ALOT of good Indian military music that could fit that description, I wish I could make slideshows and movies like that, once I learn how, I hope to make one. :D


i hear you man.

i'd really like to make a kickass indian military video with linkin park's 'kyur 4 the ich' in the background...

if i could ever find the time or motivation to, that is...:|

[rex_maximus]

yeah, i met the dude a few years ago.

he was actually giving a speech at an event organized by some south asia scholars. during the q&a, somebody brought up the army census issue (this was when the controversy was in its earliest stages) and was asking about discrimination against muslims by the army.

he seemed to take great offense to any such implication and gave a very comprehensive response about how the army is extremely secular and doesn't discriminate based on religion, etc., etc....and he explained how breakdowns by religion would simply be misleading to the public (which is very true).

Gen Malik is a decent chap. met him several times myself. my dad was his military attache while he was chief.

[ThomasMcCabe]

he seemed to take great offense to any such implication and gave a very comprehensive response about how the army is extremely secular and doesn't discriminate based on religion, etc., etc....and he explained how breakdowns by religion would simply be misleading to the public (which is very true).As a person with deep connections to the Indian Army, I would take offence too. Awesome man, if you have met him.

[Indian_Eyess]

Any time I meet a person in India complaining about Muslims I give them that example. Did you know that the tenth winner of the PVC (India's highest gallantry award) and the first in the 65 war against Pakistan was a Muslim - Abdul Hamid. He was responsible for singly taking on 4 tanks and knocking off two. The sad part is that he is the only Muslim on that list. Muslim representation in the Indian Armed Forces remains disproportionately low. It should increase and I hope it does so.
It might increase, and I think more so in the non-combat role, more as a medic, and so on like my uncle. I think the reason why is because India's main rival is Pakistan, if a war or conflict is to take place (God forbid), Pakistan would be the likely enemy, and Pakistan being pre-dominantly Muslim, I dont think many Muslims in India want to engage in violence with their Muslim brothers (for religious reasons) unless absolutely necessary. Patriotic Indian Muslims like my family members have served as medics in the AMC. Several of my family members also served in the Police forces.

However, those who join the Armed Forces , props to them. There are plenty of Muslims in internal security though.

[ThomasMcCabe]

Thats interesting Indian_Eyes, because why would you not fight an enemy if the enemy attacks you? Iraq fought Iran.

[Space-Cowboy]

Thats interesting Indian_Eyes, because why would you not fight an enemy if the enemy attacks you? Iraq fought Iran.

But that one didn't have a perceived religious agenda attached to it...... whereas it's 'possible' that people might perceive Indo-Pak wars as having such a religious undertone... :sarb:

[paulie walnuts]

It might increase, and I think more so in the non-combat role, more as a medic, and so on like my uncle. I think the reason why is because India's main rival is Pakistan, if a war or conflict is to take place (God forbid), Pakistan would be the likely enemy, and Pakistan being pre-dominantly Muslim, I dont think many Muslims in India want to engage in violence with their Muslim brothers (for religious reasons) unless absolutely necessary. Patriotic Indian Muslims like my family members have served as medics in the AMC. Several of my family members also served in the Police forces.

However, those who join the Armed Forces , props to them. There are plenty of Muslims in internal security though.though it's a factor, i don't think that's the main reason at all. particularly among low-income households, a job with the army is considered a very solid and steady source of income....and on the average, economic concerns trump virtually all else in india for both muslims and non-muslims.

the explanation for muslim underrepresentation is really quite simple - representation in the army (read recruitment) is more a function of ethnicity and caste than anything else, including religion. it is very well-known that the army, in keeping with british traditions, heavily discriminates against "non-martial" communities when it comes to recruiting. the martial muslim communities of the subcontinent were all in punjab and other parts of current-day pakistan, so there is a very small pool left to recruit muslims from...then factoring in lower muslim literacy and education rates, much of that pool is ineligible due to the army's minimum education requirements.

so just as the predominantly hindu populations of gujarat, andhra, etc. find themselves grossly underrepresented in the army, muslims do too. the general public doesn't realize this, and would wrongly assume discrimination if a census of the army's religious communities was released. the way to properly gauge religious discrimination would be to examine the representation as a proportion of the martial population, not the general population...and in that case, i think one would find roughly proportionate representation across the board.

btw, it should be noted that there are literally thousands upon thousands of exceptions to this martial-race-only policy, which is obviously not binding....some of the army's legends and national war heroes have hailed from "non-martial" communities.

i think we will see muslim participation in the army, both in infantry and otherwise, increase steadily as the nation moves forward.

[ThomasMcCabe]

But that one didn't have a perceived religious agenda attached to it...... whereas it's 'possible' that people might perceive Indo-Pak wars as having such a religious undertone... :sarb:

Refer:

I dont think many Muslims in India want to engage in violence with their Muslim brothers (for religious reasons) unless absolutely necessary

When would you fight a war?

[Space-Cowboy]

Refer:



When would you fight a war?


Doesn't apply to me, my first duty happens to be to India..... which ALSO happens to be the 'Kingdom' of my religion :cool:

[ThomasMcCabe]

Doesn't apply to me, my first duty happens to be to India..... which ALSO happens to be the 'Kingdom' of my religion :cool:I asked you a simple question. When would you fight a war? When it is absolutely necessary, not so necessary or not necessary. Besides I do not like bringing up religion ahead of patriotism. :) I am not Hindu, but I will defend my country whether it fights the US, Israel, Pakistan or Timbuktu.

[Space-Cowboy]

I asked you a simple question. When would you fight a war? When it is absolutely necessary, not so necessary or not necessary. Besides I do not like bringing up religion ahead of patriotism. :) I am not Hindu, but I will defend my country whether it fights the US, Israel, Pakistan or Timbuktu.


What I've been trying to say all along ;)

[Indian_Eyess]

Refer:



When would you fight a war?
When the very livelihood that you live for is under threat. Such as life, property, and religion. I think Indian-Muslims have a very distinguished role as diplomats. We share a religious identity with Pakistanis and we share a national one with Indians. If given the chance, I think we'd make great mediators. I hope that other Indians and the Indian Muslim community itself is given the oppurtunity to pursue peace with Pakistan and Bangladesh.

[Indian_Eyess]

though it's a factor, i don't think that's the main reason at all. particularly among low-income households, a job with the army is considered a very solid and steady source of income....and on the average, economic concerns trump virtually all else in india for both muslims and non-muslims.

the explanation for muslim underrepresentation is really quite simple - representation in the army (read recruitment) is more a function of ethnicity and caste than anything else, including religion. it is very well-known that the army, in keeping with british traditions, heavily discriminates against "non-martial" communities when it comes to recruiting. the martial muslim communities of the subcontinent were all in punjab and other parts of current-day pakistan, so there is a very small pool left to recruit muslims from...then factoring in lower muslim literacy and education rates, much of that pool is ineligible due to the army's minimum education requirements.

so just as the predominantly hindu populations of gujarat, andhra, etc. find themselves grossly underrepresented in the army, muslims do too. the general public doesn't realize this, and would wrongly assume discrimination if a census of the army's religious communities was released. the way to properly gauge religious discrimination would be to examine the representation as a proportion of the martial population, not the general population...and in that case, i think one would find roughly proportionate representation across the board.

btw, it should be noted that there are literally thousands upon thousands of exceptions to this martial-race-only policy, which is obviously not binding....some of the army's legends and national war heroes have hailed from "non-martial" communities.

i think we will see muslim participation in the army, both in infantry and otherwise, increase steadily as the nation moves forward.
Interesting, I guess demographics play an important role as well. I dont hear of alot of South Indian soldiers either, like the ones from Andhra, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, and Kerala.

[ThomasMcCabe]

When the very livelihood that you live for is under threat. Such as life, property, ...... with Pakistan and Bangladesh.
I hear you.

[Indian_Eyess]

I hear you.
lol, talk bout taking things out of context.

[ThomasMcCabe]

lol, talk bout taking things out of context.Oh no. You are the first person I have met talking that way. I am still not convinced with your explanation though, but understand where you are coming from.

[NYzNiCCa]

u mean proportion wise or overall?
cuz overall obviously there are more hindus

yeah overall...because everytime i see the news it seems like i see more sikh soldiers than any other religion. It's just an observation.

[Space-Cowboy]

yeah overall...because everytime i see the news it seems like i see more sikh soldiers than any other religion. It's just an observation.


Again, I can't wait for the day when there's robots fighting for us :p so that all this military by religious proportion thing can stop :p

[ThomasMcCabe]

I hope for the day when no one fights. Even robots.

[dandiwal_jatt]

Again, I can't wait for the day when there's robots fighting for us :p so that all this military by religious proportion thing can stop :p
psshhh that would be so boring
robots? i hope i die before such a day comes

[dandiwal_jatt]

i agree with paulie walnuts, most muslim soldiers pre partition came from the Punjab and NWFP areas, after pakistan was formed, obviously they all went to pakistan....so not many muslims were left in the indian army

[Indian_Eyess]

I dont hear or see many South Indians serving in the Armed Forces (ie., Tamils, Mallus, etc.). Like paulie mentioned earlier I think that the Indian Armed Forces are still divided along ethnic and religious lines, this will eventually change as India is evolving into a more powerful national state.

[Indian_Eyess]

Indian Army T-90 Tank:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Indian_Army_T-90.jpg
:o

[ThomasMcCabe]

I dont hear or see many South Indians serving in the Armed Forces (ie., Tamils, Mallus, etc.). Like paulie mentioned earlier I think that the Indian Armed Forces are still divided along ethnic and religious lines, this will eventually change as India is evolving into a more powerful national state.
True. My dad was an exception. There is also the Madras Sappers - something similar to the Sikh LI wrt composition by regional lines.

[Space-Cowboy]

I dont hear or see many South Indians serving in the Armed Forces (ie., Tamils, Mallus, etc.). Like paulie mentioned earlier I think that the Indian Armed Forces are still divided along ethnic and religious lines, this will eventually change as India is evolving into a more powerful national state.


Yea we need more of them in there..... :D

[ThomasMcCabe]

Yea we need more of them in there..... :D
THere are not many bengalis either. :neutral:

[Indian_Eyess]

THere are not many bengalis either. :neutral:
I guess the partition kinda took that asset away too :dunno:

[Indian_Eyess]

Indian Navy Aircraft:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/77/IJTJM.jpg/800px-IJTJM.jpg
The HAL Hindustan Jet Trainer-36 Sitara (HAL HJT-36) :eek:

[Space-Cowboy]

THere are not many bengalis either. :neutral:


I'm pretty sure there are some Bengalis there :sarb:

[paulie walnuts]

I guess the partition kinda took that asset away too :dunno:not really....there are more than enough bengalis available.

but in india, bengalis are stereotyped as being total pussies. there is even an entire category of literature dedicated to the effeminacy of bengali males.

needless to say, the army's recruiting efforts in bengal are not exactly significant.

[Indian_Eyess]

not really....there are more than enough bengalis available.

but in india, bengalis are stereotyped as being total pussies. there is even an entire category of literature dedicated to the effeminacy of bengali males.

needless to say, the army's recruiting efforts in bengal are not exactly significant.
lol, yet the National Anthem is in Bengali. I do know that the Bengal Regiment under the British command is legendary for their uprising against the British in 1857. Then again, that was over 100 years ago.

[Indian_Eyess]

Indian Air Force Helicopter:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/36/Cheetah1.gif
IAF Support Helicopter, the Cheetah

[Space-Cowboy]

Indian Air Force Helicopter:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/36/Cheetah1.gif
IAF Support Helicopter, the Cheetah


Offtopic, but that Rabbi looks like he's enjoying himself in your sig... ;) :p

[Indian_Eyess]

Offtopic, but that Rabbi looks like he's enjoying himself in your sig... ;) :p
lol, burning things is kinda fun!

[Space-Cowboy]

lol, burning things is kinda fun!


Pyromania always is... :cool:

:p

[Space-Cowboy]

btw, somebody start posting some pics of Indian Black Cat Commandos! :cool:

[bad_cheque]

Is this a good way to spend money? Most of these weapons from external sources are fitted with devices that make them useless if their original sellers decide to make them so.

If India and Pakistan can come to a peace agreement, we can slash this spending of money and allocate them to the poor people who need it.

[paulie walnuts]

Is this a good way to spend money? Most of these weapons from external sources are fitted with devices that make them useless if their original sellers decide to make them so.

If India and Pakistan can come to a peace agreement, we can slash this spending of money and allocate them to the poor people who need it.india generally adheres to a strict policy of demanding ToT before approving military hardware purchases.

[bad_cheque]

india generally adheres to a strict policy of demanding ToT before approving military hardware purchases.
Whatever ToT is...the Americans outfitted a whole Boeing with spying devices before delivery to China.

lol @ agreements and stuff...

[ThomasMcCabe]

Whatever ToT is...the Americans outfitted a whole Boeing with spying devices before delivery to China.

lol @ agreements and stuff...
Dude, some of your theories are way over the top ....

[paulie walnuts]

Whatever ToT is...the Americans outfitted a whole Boeing with spying devices before delivery to China.

lol @ agreements and stuff...oh, i thought you were referring to stuff like restricting export of replacement parts (like the US did to pakistan's F16s).

but if you're talking about implanted devices that will destroy the equipment, espionage, etc....uh, these really aren't concerns of the army when importing hardware....lol.

even if such conspiracy theories were valid...again, that wouldn't be a problem with equipment whose ToT has been secured.

[bad_cheque]

oh, i thought you were referring to stuff like restricting export of replacement parts (like the US did to pakistan's F16s).

but if you're talking about implanted devices that will destroy the equipment, espionage, etc....uh, these really aren't concerns of the army when importing hardware....lol.

even if such conspiracy theories were valid...again, that wouldn't be a problem with equipment whose ToT has been secured.
It's not a conspiracy theory. It's a well known fact. I remember it being used or threatened to be used in some instance. I forget it now.

You cannot open up a fighter jet and see what's going on in there. Repairing it will require outside help and nobody would understand any of the stuff inside anyway.

[paulie walnuts]

It's not a conspiracy theory. It's a well known fact. I remember it being used or threatened to be used in some instance. I forget it now.

You cannot open up a fighter jet and see what's going on in there. Repairing it will require outside help and nobody would understand any of the stuff inside anyway.sure you can...that's what the ToT (transfer of technology) allows for.

how do you think HAL is manufacturing 160 russian sukhoi fighter jets?

indians are not stupid...especially when spending large sums of money is involved. this is one of the reasons why such a small quantity of american hardware is used by the indian military...the americans are extremely stingy with the ToT.

[bad_cheque]

sure you can...that's what the ToT (transfer of technology) allows for.

how do you think HAL is manufacturing 160 russian sukhoi fighter jets?

indians are not stupid...especially when spending large sums of money is involved. this is one of the reasons why such a small quantity of american hardware is used by the indian military...the americans are extremely stingy with the ToT.
Manufacturing is the only way to ensure safety. Anyway I agree with your post there.

[Indian_Eyess]

Indian Black Cat Commandos

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/3091/Mortal5.jpg

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/3091/medium/Mortal6.jpg

http://students.engr.scu.edu/~jabraham/specwar/specops/india/nsg/nsggroupgrey.jpg

[Indian_Eyess]

Indian Para Commandos:
http://www.militaryimages.net/photopost/data/550/18.jpg

Indian Marines in training:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Marines3.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Marines1.jpg

Indian Commandos (women):
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images2/0497.jpg

haha, enjoy S-C :D

[Indian1986]

You forgot the Bengal regiment which was mostly Hindu and Muslim.

I agree with you but that was prior to partition.The army in undivided India had a healthy representation of the muslim population, amounting to almost 25% of the strength of the army. A number of muslim units like pathans, punjabis etc and sub units went across to Pakistan whereas a large proportion of the muslim population mostly in UP ,Bihar, Delhi and Hyderabad state and some other areas stayed on.I also feel that reservation of some martial races has caused an imbalance which is biased against muslims.All citizens irrespective of race/religion should have the right to participate in the defence of the country and we must do away with all this reservation.

[Indian1986]

Any time I meet a person in India complaining about Muslims I give them that example. Did you know that the tenth winner of the PVC (India's highest gallantry award) and the first in the 65 war against Pakistan was a Muslim - Abdul Hamid. He was responsible for singly taking on 4 tanks and knocking off two. The sad part is that he is the only Muslim on that list. Muslim representation in the Indian Armed Forces remains disproportionately low. It should increase and I hope it does so.

He was rightly awarded the param veer chakra.

[Space-Cowboy]

Indian Para Commandos:
haha, enjoy S-C :D

Awesome mang thanks :D


And must say, those girls are :Pelvic2: :Pelvic2: :Pelvic2:

[Space-Cowboy]

btw, those mustaches, ..... they have to GO.

..... seriously, those commandos would be so menacing, if not for having those lame looking mustaches... :neutral:

[bad_cheque]

btw, those mustaches, ..... they have to GO.

..... seriously, those commandos would be so menacing, if not for having those lame looking mustaches... :neutral:
In South Asia, people without moustaches look lame.

[Space-Cowboy]

In South Asia, people without moustaches look lame.


Come again?

[Gladiator]

i remember chinese agents found 26 spy devices in that boeing 767 presidential plane, one of them was found inside the toilet :p

it's time india should stop making weapons on it's own, i understand it's getting advanced but even the US gets tech from european countries in development, arjun is a failed project and was rejected by the army, so much money wasted and also the LCA, they made two prototypes and all they do is fly in the airshows, i'm not trying put india down but they need to cooperate in making defence equipment that way they will learn to make it on their own.

pakistan learned a lesson hard way, we got sanctioned on the american built arms and started developing by ourselves, tanks and fighter jet, we're getting china's and ukraine's help, the rest by ourselves.

[paulie walnuts]

i remember chinese agents found 26 spy devices in that boeing 767 presidential plane, one of them was found inside the toilet :p

it's time india should stop making weapons on it's own, i understand it's getting advanced but even the US gets tech from european countries in development, arjun is a failed project and was rejected by the army, so much money wasted and also the LCA, they made two prototypes and all they do is fly in the airshows, i'm not trying put india down but they need to cooperate in making defence equipment that way they will learn to make it on their own.

pakistan learned a lesson hard way, we got sanctioned on the american built arms and started developing by ourselves, tanks and fighter jet, we're getting china's and ukraine's help, the rest by ourselves.there is a difference between fully indigenous projects undertaken by the DRDO and ToT projects. it is true that india has wasted money on indigenous projects and it's debatable as to whether or not is was worth it....but india certainly does a great job of negotiating indigenous production of foreign equipment via ToT.

pakistan neither produces anything indigenously nor gets the ToT (some exceptions)....it relies solely on importation of ready-made products. slapping muslim names and labels on 100% finished chinese products doesn't make them homemade.

this leaves them far more vulnerable than the indians if exporters were to become hostile.

[Indian_Eyess]

btw, those mustaches, ..... they have to GO.

..... seriously, those commandos would be so menacing, if not for having those lame looking mustaches... :neutral:
naw dude, the Mustaches and the beard makes them look more aggressive.

Indian soldiers without mustaches look feminine:
http://www.tridentmilitary.com/photo-gallery/Indian-army-armour-captain.jpg

Indian soldiers with mustaches look hardcore:
http://news.indiainfo.com/2002/09/09/soldierjk1.jpg

http://news.msn.co.il/NR/rdonlyres/71FB1DE6-9747-486B-A666-090A8AD2D85A/80499/IndianSoldier050922ApZItem.jpg

[paulie walnuts]

'staches are tight.....the guy on the left has the most badass facial hair i've seen.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/6725/capt1042642108indiapakistandel101yahoo0md8.jpg

[Space-Cowboy]

Dude....... so fobbish :no:

Paulie- technically the one on the left doesn't count as a moustache, that's a chop-connector. If it extends in any direction further below your jaw line, it's not just a mustache anymore ;)

[rex_maximus]

though it's a factor, i don't think that's the main reason at all. particularly among low-income households, a job with the army is considered a very solid and steady source of income....and on the average, economic concerns trump virtually all else in india for both muslims and non-muslims.

the explanation for muslim underrepresentation is really quite simple - representation in the army (read recruitment) is more a function of ethnicity and caste than anything else, including religion. it is very well-known that the army, in keeping with british traditions, heavily discriminates against "non-martial" communities when it comes to recruiting. the martial muslim communities of the subcontinent were all in punjab and other parts of current-day pakistan, so there is a very small pool left to recruit muslims from...then factoring in lower muslim literacy and education rates, much of that pool is ineligible due to the army's minimum education requirements.

so just as the predominantly hindu populations of gujarat, andhra, etc. find themselves grossly underrepresented in the army, muslims do too. the general public doesn't realize this, and would wrongly assume discrimination if a census of the army's religious communities was released. the way to properly gauge religious discrimination would be to examine the representation as a proportion of the martial population, not the general population...and in that case, i think one would find roughly proportionate representation across the board.

btw, it should be noted that there are literally thousands upon thousands of exceptions to this martial-race-only policy, which is obviously not binding....some of the army's legends and national war heroes have hailed from "non-martial" communities.

i think we will see muslim participation in the army, both in infantry and otherwise, increase steadily as the nation moves forward.


good post.

[rex_maximus]

nice pics, IE. here's some more...

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Special-Forces/Para2.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Marines2.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Marines5.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article15a.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Special-Forces/Mortal5.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Special-Forces/Mortal6.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/History/1970s/Images/Wullar2.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Special-Forces/Secure4.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Special-Forces/Secure5.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Galleries/main.php?g2_itemId=118
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Galleries/main.php?g2_itemId=29
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Galleries/main.php?g2_itemId=38
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Galleries/main.php?g2_itemId=66
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Galleries/main.php?g2_itemId=40
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Galleries/main.php?g2_itemId=54
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Galleries/main.php?g2_itemId=48
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Galleries/main.php?g2_itemId=457

[rex_maximus]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images2/0526.jpg http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0348.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0003.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images2/0547.jpg http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0365.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0009.jpg
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images/0149.jpg

[Space-Cowboy]

Mannnn those mustaches HAVE TO GO!! :no:



:p

[ThomasMcCabe]

NVG in the day time? I hate propaganda shots - they look too staged.

[rex_maximus]

NVG in the day time? I hate propaganda shots - they look too staged.

lol...good catch.

[Space-Cowboy]

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Marines5.jpg

This brotha looks BAD ASS!

[Indian_Eyess]

Mustaches are bad ass S-C :hand:

Awesome pics rex...haha, I added pics of an Indian Black Cat Commando on my facebook and everything thought he was a terrorist :no:

Anyways, here are some more :)
http://www.ww2incolor.com/gallery/albums/germans/akv.sized.jpg

http://img87.exs.cx/img87/6383/50851179.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article35j.jpg

http://img87.exs.cx/img87/4586/50851181.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article35b.jpg

http://img29.photobucket.com/albums/v87/Rajch970386/Indian%20Army/2826640.jpg

http://www.hindustantimes.com/wfsf/high/2005/07.01/images/high1417420.jpg

http://img87.exs.cx/img87/9937/50851178.jpg

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Articles/Article35f.jpg

http://www.indiavarta.com/gallery/images/2004/Aug/15/cele7.jpg
^ NCC my mom was part of this corp as a child :p

Jai Hind bitches :salut:

[KhanNoonienSingh]

though it's a factor, i don't think that's the main reason at all. particularly among low-income households, a job with the army is considered a very solid and steady source of income....and on the average, economic concerns trump virtually all else in india for both muslims and non-muslims.

the explanation for muslim underrepresentation is really quite simple - representation in the army (read recruitment) is more a function of ethnicity and caste than anything else, including religion. it is very well-known that the army, in keeping with british traditions, heavily discriminates against "non-martial" communities when it comes to recruiting. the martial muslim communities of the subcontinent were all in punjab and other parts of current-day pakistan, so there is a very small pool left to recruit muslims from...then factoring in lower muslim literacy and education rates, much of that pool is ineligible due to the army's minimum education requirements.

so just as the predominantly hindu populations of gujarat, andhra, etc. find themselves grossly underrepresented in the army, muslims do too. the general public doesn't realize this, and would wrongly assume discrimination if a census of the army's religious communities was released. the way to properly gauge religious discrimination would be to examine the representation as a proportion of the martial population, not the general population...and in that case, i think one would find roughly proportionate representation across the board.

btw, it should be noted that there are literally thousands upon thousands of exceptions to this martial-race-only policy, which is obviously not binding....some of the army's legends and national war heroes have hailed from "non-martial" communities.

i think we will see muslim participation in the army, both in infantry and otherwise, increase steadily as the nation moves forward.there is a difference between fully indigenous projects undertaken by the DRDO and ToT projects. it is true that india has wasted money on indigenous projects and it's debatable as to whether or not is was worth it....but india certainly does a great job of negotiating indigenous production of foreign equipment via ToT.

pakistan neither produces anything indigenously nor gets the ToT (some exceptions)....it relies solely on importation of ready-made products. slapping muslim names and labels on 100% finished chinese products doesn't make them homemade.

this leaves them far more vulnerable than the indians if exporters were to become hostile.werd @ both these posts.

i wonder which will be more effective. the Iranian way (they make a lot of their own shit after reverse engineering stuff from other countries cuz they can't buy in large quantities) or the Paki way (bought everything). iranian way is probably pointless i think. all those factories are gonna go down in the first wave of attacks from a superior air force. and money can buy you a superior air force (pakistan's is better than iran's).

[bad_cheque]

When did this thread turn into a worship of violence?

As for "martial races", the British initially preferred Brahmins for their Indian army. After the mutiny of 1857, they decided that Brahmins 'think too much.'

[rex_maximus]

great pics, IE.

that one of the sukhoi releasing flares in a tight turn is f*in cool.

and yea, mustaches are bad ass on desi army dudes.

[rex_maximus]

IE, continuation of the firearms discussion from the mirage thread...

I've fired quite a few guns, among them the infamous SLR 7.62 also. fucking thing has a range of 800m-1000m. thats a friggin kilometer. the jawans were telling me that at low range, becuase of the spiral action of the bullet, the entry wound from the SLR is only about a centimeter wide, but the exit wound is nearly six inches in diameter...cleans out the vicitms insides. if fired at an extremity under 100 meters, it'll take the entire limb off.

actually, the indian army learnt a hard lesson through the IPKF in Sri Lanka. It was found that the SLR was way too big and powerful to be an effective close quarters weapon, as is required for guerilla warfare. The large size makes close range targetting and handling ineffective. And the high caliber is also a downfall, since in guerilla warfare, it is more desirable to injure than to kill...since a wounded enemy ties down others to take care of him. The LTTE had a definite advantage with their AKs. That episode cost the Indian Army 10,000 casualties...and prompted Rajiv Gandhi's assasination. Anyway, there were lessons learnt. One of them was the development and inclusion of the smaller, lighter, and less powerful Insas 5.56mm caliber, which has since become a standard weapon.

also got a chance to fire the new Israeli assault rifle, Tavor. fuckin ridiculous, i tell ya. 750 rounds per minute, laser sight...looks like a governator gun. then the israeli LMG. half the size of the indian LMG...800 RPM. This officer was firing bursts of 20 (which takes but a second to dispense). The target was 200 meters out. Even with the sunlight in the daytime and at that distance, I could see that the sand behind the target in which the bullets were flopping...was glowing red hot. i was like....shit, what would this thing do to a person.

but it was really, really cool....coz it was just harmless target practice. its the rollercoaster effect...its all fun, no matter how extreme it is, coz in the back of your mind, you know its ok.

[bad_cheque]

If only people spent more money on schools.

[Indian_Eyess]

IE, continuation of the firearms discussion from the mirage thread...

I've fired quite a few guns, among them the infamous SLR 7.62 also. fucking thing has a range of 800m-1000m. thats a friggin kilometer. the jawans were telling me that at low range, becuase of the spiral action of the bullet, the entry wound from the SLR is only about a centimeter wide, but the exit wound is nearly six inches in diameter...cleans out the vicitms insides. if fired at an extremity under 100 meters, it'll take the entire limb off.

actually, the indian army learnt a hard lesson through the IPKF in Sri Lanka. It was found that the SLR was way too big and powerful to be an effective close quarters weapon, as is required for guerilla warfare. The large size makes close range targetting and handling ineffective. And the high caliber is also a downfall, since in guerilla warfare, it is more desirable to injure than to kill...since a wounded enemy ties down others to take care of him. The LTTE had a definite advantage with their AKs. That episode cost the Indian Army 10,000 casualties...and prompted Rajiv Gandhi's assasination. Anyway, there were lessons learnt. One of them was the development and inclusion of the smaller, lighter, and less powerful Insas 5.56mm caliber, which has since become a standard weapon.

also got a chance to fire the new Israeli assault rifle, Tavor. fuckin ridiculous, i tell ya. 750 rounds per minute, laser sight...looks like a governator gun. then the israeli LMG. half the size of the indian LMG...800 RPM. This officer was firing bursts of 20 (which takes but a second to dispense). The target was 200 meters out. Even with the sunlight in the daytime and at that distance, I could see that the sand behind the target in which the bullets were flopping...was glowing red hot. i was like....shit, what would this thing do to a person.

but it was really, really cool....coz it was just harmless target practice. its the rollercoaster effect...its all fun, no matter how extreme it is, coz in the back of your mind, you know its ok.

Thats fucking awesome, dude, I'm all hyped up now, and very very jealous haha. I wish I had that experience where did you see all this take place? I've never seen the LMG, lol at least the Indian version and that is fucking awesome. Like you said it wouldnt fare well in close quarter combat. Have you seen the AK-105? That gun is bad ass, and it compliments the Kalashnikov rifles well and is a great gun overall, good for close quarter combat with an ability to fire at great distances. It can fire up to 600 rounds per minute and I hear that the AK-108 is awesome as the AK-105 is for close quarter combat, the AK-108 is awesome that its a regular sized assault rifle, its light, it can fire up to 900 rounds per minute and at a range of up to 450 m.

AK-107:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/ak-107.jpg

[Indian_Eyess]

When did this thread turn into a worship of violence?

As for "martial races", the British initially preferred Brahmins for their Indian army. After the mutiny of 1857, they decided that Brahmins 'think too much.'
haha, I dont worship violence, in fact I hate people getting killed, I hate wars as well, but I do like military weapons for some reason. I guess its just cool to look at them, but when they start killing people that it becomes disgusting.

[TechPhunk]

lol omg we wtfpwn ghetto style.

btw, bet u never shot an ar15 or m1 rifle ;)....ahhh the joys of being friends with rednecks. fyi, the m1 has a kick that will give your shoulder a wake up call.

[bad_cheque]

lol omg we wtfpwn ghetto style.

btw, bet u never shot an ar15 or m1 rifle ;)....ahhh the joys of being friends with rednecks. fyi, the m1 has a kick that will give your shoulder a wake up call.
:lol:

[rex_maximus]

Thats fucking awesome, dude, I'm all hyped up now, and very very jealous haha. I wish I had that experience where did you see all this take place? I've never seen the LMG, lol at least the Indian version and that is fucking awesome. Like you said it wouldnt fare well in close quarter combat. Have you seen the AK-105? That gun is bad ass, and it compliments the Kalashnikov rifles well and is a great gun overall, good for close quarter combat with an ability to fire at great distances. It can fire up to 600 rounds per minute and I hear that the AK-108 is awesome as the AK-105 is for close quarter combat, the AK-108 is awesome that its a regular sized assault rifle, its light, it can fire up to 900 rounds per minute and at a range of up to 450 m.

AK-107:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/ak-107.jpg

fired all those weapons back in India.
yea, the AK-10x series are sweet. ur AK-107 link is broken - but no worries, here's some pics below:

AK-105:
http://www.rusmilitary.com/images/ak-105%20(1).jpg
AK=107 (with grenade launcher)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/Ak-107.jpg
SLR 7.62
http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/14780/normal_SLR%20complete.jpg
INSAS 5.56
http://air-defense.net/dossier/635/plan635.jpg
LMG 7.62 (range 1830 metres :|)
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/Images2/0454.jpg
Tavor
http://remtek.com/arms/imi/tavor/tavor.gif
Negev LMG 5.56
http://www.israel-weapon.com/files/Products/Picts/0345x200.gifhttp://www.israel-weapon.com/http://www.israel-weapon.com/

[Indian_Eyess]

fired all those weapons back in India.
yea, the AK-10x series are sweet. ur AK-107 link is broken - but no worries, here's some pics below:
http://air-defense.net/dossier/635/plan635.jpg
LMG 7.62 (range 1830 metres :|) http://www.israel-weapon.com/http://www.israel-weapon.com/
:shock: wow, thats amazing!

I heard the Tavor was good for close quarter warfare but easily jams up sometimes.

[Indian_Eyess]

lol omg we wtfpwn ghetto style.

btw, bet u never shot an ar15 or m1 rifle ;)....ahhh the joys of being friends with rednecks. fyi, the m1 has a kick that will give your shoulder a wake up call.
lol, I never shot the AR-15, but when we went to Arkansas to see a few of my 'redneck' friends, we watched their dad and uncle destroy an abandoned truck with M4 Carbines and an AR-15

[NdNStaTEofMinD]

Indian Army.....Man If I still lived back home I would join in a minute. Well when the day comes n India is invaded n needs soldiers, Im bout to get my ass back.....But we know thas not gonna happen cuz we got some badass OGs defendin our country


But anyways Im glad to know that the Indian Military is starting new Recruiting campaigns to get more Gujarati Youth into the armed forces....I always felt we needed more of us in there.

[bad_cheque]

Indian Army.....Man If I still lived back home I would join in a minute. Well when the day comes n India is invaded n needs soldiers, Im bout to get my ass back.....But we know thas not gonna happen cuz we got some badass OGs defendin our country


But anyways Im glad to know that the Indian Military is starting new Recruiting campaigns to get more Gujarati Youth into the armed forces....I always felt we needed more of us in there.
The day India starts invading is the day it will start going down the drain.

[NdNStaTEofMinD]

The day India starts invading is the day it will start going down the drain.
Read it again homes....It says "the day India IS invaded."

[bad_cheque]

Read it again homes....It says "the day India IS invaded."
Sorry, it was my mistake.

[paulie walnuts]

But anyways Im glad to know that the Indian Military is starting new Recruiting campaigns to get more Gujarati Youth into the armed forces....I always felt we needed more of us in there.they should definitely put some gujus in the accounts department to get the spending in check and keep an eye on excessive whiskey orders.

but definitely not frontline troops.

[NdNStaTEofMinD]

they should definitely put some gujus in the accounts department to get the spending in check and keep an eye on excessive whiskey orders.

but definitely not frontline troops.
Iunno about the frontline thing yo.....People think all gujus are like little sissys, but thas a small minority cuz most of the gujus I know are like hot headed mufuckas who'll swing at anyone if disrespected, even if it means theyll get there asses whooped, in other words theyll fight till they can no longer go on...Id say thas soldier material....Im guju rajput if your wondering, but im talkin bout non rajput gujus.

But even in Gujarat I have a feeling they will target one of the "martial races" such as Rajputs who make up a large amount of the population n Jats(yes there are some in gujarat). But i dont like the concept of the martial races theory anways cuz ive seen some pussy ass jatts n some hardass brahmin from Kerela...It all boils down to the individual now a days, not his tribe.

[paulie walnuts]

Iunno about the frontline thing yo.....People think all gujus are like little sissys, but thas a small minority cuz most of the gujus I know are like hot headed mufuckas who'll swing at anyone if disrespected, even if it means theyll get there asses whooped, in other words theyll fight till they can no longer go on...Id say thas soldier material....Im guju rajput if your wondering, but im talkin bout non rajput gujus.hot-headed pussies make good soldiers? uh..i don't think so, dude.

But i dont like the concept of the martial races theory anways cuz ive seen some pussy ass jatts n some hardass brahmin from Kerela...It all boils down to the individual now a days, not his tribe.when dealing with large-scale recruiting, such individual-level analysis is impossible and inefficient. the army's generalizations are not even close to being entirely accurate, but they're accurate enough.

i am all about racist army recruiting policies.

[NdNStaTEofMinD]

hot-headed pussies make good soldiers? uh..i don't think so, dude.

when dealing with large-scale recruiting, such individual-level analysis is impossible and inefficient. the army's generalizations are not even close to being entirely accurate, but they're accurate enough.

i am all about racist army recruiting policies.

Yeah I worded the top part wrong...But im not gonna get into that shiit rite here....Just visit some villages in Gujarat n see how the kids are raised there, Over here most of the gujus are rich n grow up in rich neighborhoods n never need to fight, N that goes for any Desis who grow up rich in the West, theyre usually all just sissys even though some act tough.


But yeah I agree, Its accurate enuff....plus everyone knows our Army kicks ass with the same races are fightin the frontlines that did for hundreds of years.

[Indian_Eyess]

Iunno about the frontline thing yo.....People think all gujus are like little sissys, but thas a small minority cuz most of the gujus I know are like hot headed mufuckas who'll swing at anyone if disrespected, even if it means theyll get there asses whooped, in other words theyll fight till they can no longer go on...Id say thas soldier material....Im guju rajput if your wondering, but im talkin bout non rajput gujus.

But even in Gujarat I have a feeling they will target one of the "martial races" such as Rajputs who make up a large amount of the population n Jats(yes there are some in gujarat). But i dont like the concept of the martial races theory anways cuz ive seen some pussy ass jatts n some hardass brahmin from Kerela...It all boils down to the individual now a days, not his tribe.
I dont think we need soldiers like that

[rex_maximus]

they should definitely put some gujus in the accounts department to get the spending in check and keep an eye on excessive whiskey orders.

but definitely not frontline troops.

:roflbow: