Muslim Ethnic Culture is Essentially Racist.

[Mash007]

Pakis, Bengalis, Indian, African Indian, Afghans, Blacks....

All Muslim, Yet All different tribes...

Where I live theres no mosques that are inclusive they're all exclusive... the paki mosque, the bengali mosque, the somalian mosque

and this leads into the way we live our lives and perceive other muslims 'brothers and sisters', theres no chance of marriage between us all, and if it does happen its usually against the wishes of the families involved

Islam and Culture has gotten so mixed up for the majority of Desi muslims that few know what Islam really is anymore...

you should be able to go to any mosque and feel comfortable to pray etc... but meh that just doesnt happen....

and unfortunatel it goes down to the younger gnerations too just ignorant and racist against their own without realising it...

Its a shame thats theres fuck all enlightened muslim leaders amongst the muslim community ... even if there was.. the Pakis wouldnt follow a bengali or a somalian and vice versa...

In a perfect world we would all see one another as brothers and sisters, look beyond the ethnic and see only the muslim...

What happened to One Ummah, One Faith?

do you think this will ever change?

Discuss

[arbigooner]

hmm I live in Hayes so a lot of Somalis live here, but theres just the one mosque in the town centre which everyone, pakis, bengalis and somalis use. In my uni we have the Islamic Society, the president is somali, and we have paki, indian, arab, bengali members. its not like we have paki or somali mosques right next to each other, I think its only because of the area the mosque is in is populated by people of that ethnic origin. If you were to go into a Somali mosque, do you think you'd be denied entry?

[Mash007]

hmm I live in Hayes so a lot of Somalis live here, but theres just the one mosque in the town centre which everyone, pakis, bengalis and somalis use. In my uni we have the Islamic Society, the president is somali, and we have paki, indian, arab, bengali members. its not like we have paki or somali mosques right next to each other, I think its only because of the area the mosque is in is populated by people of that ethnic origin. If you were to go into a Somali mosque, do you think you'd be denied entry?nah .. I dont give a shit bout these things... Uni life kinda opened my eyes to what it is to be muslim

what I mean is.. ur average man off the street wont feel comfortable.. if u go to most mosues in my area... they all do the talks in Urdu...

People are weird following an Imam that isnt the same ethnicity as them... no-one says it... but theres that underlying current of sly discrimination...

[Ohmygod]

nah .. I dont give a shit bout these things... Uni life kinda opened my eyes to what it is to be muslim

what I mean is.. ur average man off the street wont feel comfortable.. if u go to most mosues in my area... they all do the talks in Urdu...

People are weird following an Imam that isnt the same ethnicity as them... no-one says it... but theres that underlying current of sly discrimination...
its coz the culture and language is different but they not racist, i'l walk into any masjid were all the same

[Mash007]

its coz the culture and language is different but they not racist, i'l walk into any masjid were all the samelike i said.. it starts at the mosque and is extended into the community...

it just gets on my nerves at times...

I personally think that in this day and age.. all the sermons should be in English

[Ohmygod]

like i said.. it starts at the mosque and is extended into the community...

it just gets on my nerves at times...

I personally think that in this day and age.. all the sermons should be in English
i agree it should be in english but even better they should have a translator so everyone can understand. Theres too much politics in the masjid most of the comitee need slappin up they dont even know how to run a masjid properly they always arguin and comin out with petty differences which actually make us all unique and special. Most of the comitee leaders are uneducated fools and need educating big time.

[x_babytee_x]

culture and religion will forever b an issue in our society and the differences between generations plays a mjor part however we was told by the prophet (pbuh) that we will unite as an ummah 1 day when times get REALLY bad which is more or less now.... even tho with all the troubles in the world islam is on revival if u compare our generation with the last u find many people now have more knowledge on islam compared to their parents...

[Mash007]

i agree it should be in english but even better they should have a translator so everyone can understand. Theres too much politics in the masjid most of the comitee need slappin up they dont even know how to run a masjid properly they always arguin and comin out with petty differences which actually make us all unique and special. Most of the comitee leaders are uneducated fools and need educating big time.the reason muslims are so fucked up is cos we're so fragmented....

thats the worst thing about us... the version of islam preached in each community is different according to the culture... I think they need to go back to just the Basics...

a lot of paki culture and traditions is based on old hindu customs.. eg.. Tahweez and things like that...

[zman1033]

nah .. I dont give a shit bout these things... Uni life kinda opened my eyes to what it is to be muslim

what I mean is.. ur average man off the street wont feel comfortable.. if u go to most mosues in my area... they all do the talks in Urdu...

People are weird following an Imam that isnt the same ethnicity as them... no-one says it... but theres that underlying current of sly discrimination...

well first of all it doesnt matter what language they r speaking urdu, arabic..etc...ur not there to gossip and talk...ur there for allah...u can have ur conversations after...a mosque is a house of god and it doesnt matter what colour or race u r...i dont think u should feel uncomfortable

[arbigooner]

I agree that all sermons should be in English. We have two jumma prayers at our mosque, the first one has it in English and the second in Urdu. I've never felt uncomfortable walking into any mosque and I've never had issues with Imam's ethnicity either, to be honest I kinda dislike Paki imams cuz generally they dont have good qirat.

[Mash007]

well first of all it doesnt matter what language they r speaking urdu, arabic..etc...ur not there to gossip and talk...ur there for allah...u can have ur conversations after...a mosque is a house of god and it doesnt matter what colour or race u r...i dont think u should feel uncomfortablethe whole point of the sermon is to educate on some random topic right?

whats the point in going if you cant communicate with your imam and community leaders...

most mosque people are corrupt as well.

[arbigooner]

a lot of paki culture and traditions is based on old hindu customs.. eg.. Tahweez and things like that...
that shit is fucked up, I wouldnt go to a mosque which preaches that.

[Mash007]

I agree that all sermons should be in English. We have two jumma prayers at our mosque, the first one has it in English and the second in Urdu. I've never felt uncomfortable walking into any mosque and I've never had issues with Imam's ethnicity either, to be honest I kinda dislike Paki imams cuz generally they dont have good qirat.whats Qirat?

and yeah I aint ust talkin about mosques, I'm also referring to the negative effect this has on the community.. its sad..

All these somalian refugees have come over, running away from oppression and death and we Paki muslims.. talk like shit about them (not me personally) essentially we treat them like white people treated our parents when they came over...

how sad that we forgot our roots in this country in such a short time

[badmAN_asiAN]

i used to be racist to pakistanis wen i was yunga but now ive matured and realised wer all muslims so wats the point in fighting. my gfs a pakistani n we bin 2getha 4 ages n no matter i wont let culture get inbetween us coz wer both muslim so wats the point in the fueds

[FunkyF]

It's not Islam to blame for certain wrongs, it is greedy human nature that turns us away from the right way

[pEEk-a-bOO]

Pakis, Bengalis, Indian, African Indian, Afghans, Blacks....

All Muslim, Yet All different tribes...

Where I live theres no mosques that are inclusive they're all exclusive... the paki mosque, the bengali mosque, the somalian mosque

and this leads into the way we live our lives and perceive other muslims 'brothers and sisters', theres no chance of marriage between us all, and if it does happen its usually against the wishes of the families involved

Islam and Culture has gotten so mixed up for the majority of Desi muslims that few know what Islam really is anymore...

you should be able to go to any mosque and feel comfortable to pray etc... but meh that just doesnt happen....

and unfortunatel it goes down to the younger gnerations too just ignorant and racist against their own without realising it...

Its a shame thats theres fuck all enlightened muslim leaders amongst the muslim community ... even if there was.. the Pakis wouldnt follow a bengali or a somalian and vice versa...

In a perfect world we would all see one another as brothers and sisters, look beyond the ethnic and see only the muslim...

What happened to One Ummah, One Faith?

do you think this will ever change?

Discuss

Mashy Bhaijaan :hug: u forgot to add persian in the first sentence! :giggle: ...adn yes i agree it's bad :no:

[arbigooner]

whats Qirat?
recitation of the Quran...

[badmAN_asiAN]

It's not Islam to blame for certain wrongs, it is greedy human nature that turns us away from the right way
coz of the war between bangladesh n pakistan bak in the day i bin brought up 2 hate pakistanis by my uncles. they liv bak ther so i understand why. but i guess they brain washd me in2 hatin pakistanis. but ive realised dat wats the point. islam is islam cultures aside

[Mash007]

i used to be racist to pakistanis wen i was yunga but now ive matured and realised wer all muslims so wats the point in fighting. my gfs a pakistani n we bin 2getha 4 ages n no matter i wont let culture get inbetween us coz wer both muslim so wats the point in the fuedsthis is another thing...

a paki guy will happily marry a bengali girl for example but then when it comes to a sister wanted to marry out... it becomes a whole different ball game...

I think things like that are good if done properly... end of the day it should just be about your religion..

[badmAN_asiAN]

this is another thing...

a paki guy will happily marry a bengali girl for example but then when it comes to a sister wanted to marry out... it becomes a whole different ball game...

I think things like that are good if done properly... end of the day it should just be about your religion..
my mates uncle got married 2 a pakisani gal n no1 came 2 the wedding. only their frendz came. his parents didnt talk to him for 6months. its soo stupid

[Mash007]

recitation of the Quran...oh right..

Uni was when I really opened my eyes though.. I never knew there were punjabi and Guji muslims lol

I met arabs etc and saw that they practiced differently to what I was taught and at first I was well confused then Over time I started learning about Islam as just islam.. without all the politics, agendasm doctrines added...

am still learning now...

its eye opening the amount of cultural stuff we do.. it comes down to ignorance the imams rarely explain anything.. they just tell you itx good and to do it

[Mash007]

my mates uncle got married 2 a pakisani gal n no1 came 2 the wedding. only their frendz came. his parents didnt talk to him for 6months. its soo stupidyeah marriage is where it all fucks up ... always lol...

kinda sad really cos it really shouldnt matter but we make it matter so much...

[Rizla]

I go to a Mosque where people of all backgrounds go. Id say the majority are Khoja, but theres a good mix of pakis, indians (me), even some bleck and white people. I guess there are places that are socially exclusive, but surely these are in areas that have a high proportion of that ethnicity? Im sure they are not being exclusive. At the end of the day, everyone is welcome as a brother (or sister). No matter what background you have. Thats what I have found from my experiences, and why I think Islam is an amazing religion.

Obviously when it come to cricket then u paki bastards can fak off! India! India! India! :D :D

[arbigooner]

oh right..

Uni was when I really opened my eyes though.. I never knew there were punjabi and Guji muslims lol

I met arabs etc and saw that they practiced differently to what I was taught and at first I was well confused then Over time I started learning about Islam as just islam.. without all the politics, agendasm doctrines added...

am still learning now...

its eye opening the amount of cultural stuff we do.. it comes down to ignorance the imams rarely explain anything.. they just tell you itx good and to do it
yeah it is eye opening. I was never exposed to any of the cultural stuff having been brought up in saudi, but when I went to Pakistan I was surprised how much people had changed the religion, mazaars, peer sahabs, shabraat celebrations, celebrating the Prophet's (SAW) birthday (which also happens to be the same day he died)

[arbigooner]

I go to a Mosque where people of all backgrounds go. Id say the majority are Khoja, but theres a good mix of pakis, indians (me), even some bleck and white people. I guess there are places that are socially exclusive, but surely these are in areas that have a high proportion of that ethnicity? Im sure they are not being exclusive. At the end of the day, everyone is welcome as a brother (or sister). No matter what background you have. Thats what I have found from my experiences, and why I think Islam is an amazing religion.

Obviously when it come to cricket then u paki bastards can fak off! India! India! India! :D :D
Agree with everything you said, except for the fact that Pakistan has the superior team :p.

[Mash007]

yeah it is eye opening. I was never exposed to any of the cultural stuff having been brought up in saudi, but when I went to Pakistan I was surprised how much people had changed the religion, mazaars, peer sahabs, shabraat celebrations, celebrating the Prophet's (SAW) birthday (which also happens to be the same day he died)but this all then follows through to the community..

Like for example as the brother said.. Marriage being the obvious thing...

To be a proper muslim means submitting to the will of Allah .. all of it not just the bits that your culture agree with.... it takes courage to be a proper muslim...

most people are happy just following blindly and not making any effort of their own to educate them self....

I aint anywhere close yet myself but I'm slowly just reading up on things...

[Mash007]

I go to a Mosque where people of all backgrounds go. Id say the majority are Khoja, but theres a good mix of pakis, indians (me), even some bleck and white people. I guess there are places that are socially exclusive, but surely these are in areas that have a high proportion of that ethnicity? Im sure they are not being exclusive. At the end of the day, everyone is welcome as a brother (or sister). No matter what background you have. Thats what I have found from my experiences, and why I think Islam is an amazing religion.

Obviously when it come to cricket then u paki bastards can fak off! India! India! India! :D :DI think it should be the job of the mosque to educate the community to enlighten them... most mosques just close their minds and indictrinate them

a friend of my cousins raised £110, 000 for the Kashmir earthquake fund...

we were talkin and the guy was talking about when there was a quake in Gujarat a few years back and he said Paki muslims didnt give a shit then.. hes Indian muslim himself.. you could tell he was well hurt... I had to be honest with him and say I had no idea of any Indian Quake let alone give money to it :(

[Cute_hun]

Iv also realised how much of a big difference there is amongst difference cultures, it is quite worrying coz the majority of us just go along with the crowd and convince ourselves that everyting we do is correct because our elders say so.

[Mash007]

Iv also realised how much of a big difference there is amongst difference cultures, it is quite worrying coz the majority of us just go along with the crowd and convince ourselves that everyting we do is correct because our elders say so.our elders are generally ignorant...

its endemic within Islamic communities that what is taught is essentially the bits that fit in with their culture.. anything that doesnt agree with their culture is rules out

end of the day the mosques are run by committees and they set the 'curriculum'

[The Anti Desi]

What the fuck is wrong with y'all Brits???

[Mash007]

What the fuck is wrong with y'all Brits???what the fuck are you? amreekan :squint:

its different here we have longstanding big communities... hard to change for them... the backward bastards

[The Anti Desi]

what the fuck are you? amreekan :squint:

its different here we have longstanding big communities... hard to change for them... the backward bastards
American, Muslim, and damn proud of it.

Get this straight.......there ain't any Muslim "culture"...only eternal law of God. Culture is whatever you want....as long as it does not violate God's law.

[Mash007]

American, Muslim, and damn proud of it.

Get this straight.......there ain't any Muslim "culture"...only eternal law of God. Culture is whatever you want....as long as it violate God's law.what are you though?

do u consider yourself American Muslim or Muslim American?

and I think you meant.. doesnt violate...:p

[londonnaz]

culture and religion will forever b an issue in our society and the differences between generations plays a mjor part however we was told by the prophet (pbuh) that we will unite as an ummah 1 day when times get REALLY bad which is more or less now.... even tho with all the troubles in the world islam is on revival if u compare our generation with the last u find many people now have more knowledge on islam compared to their parents...


:sarb: errm i think ur wrong darling, most of our generation dont have a clue, do u really belive that most of our generation now know more about islam and the proper practice of islam than our parents ?? seriously half of the people i know dont even know which school of thought they follow and wich imam and thats despite growing up in a strong muslim community, nowadays kids are just taught the basics about the islam and not the wider issues at all, such as sunnah, the way our prophet practiced the religion, the religion as a whole
Nowadays those with the still kinda strict parents just send the kids to mosque for 2 hours a day, they learn the arabic, to read the quran and to read and learn the namaaz and du'aas etc as long as they can do that that seems to be enough

[Mash007]

:sarb: errm i think ur wrong darling, most of our generation dont have a clue, do u really belive that most of our generation now know more about islam and the proper practice of islam than our parents ?? seriously half of the people i know dont even know which school of thought they follow and wich imam and thats despite growing up in a strong muslim community, nowadays kids are just taught the basics about the islam and not the wider issues at all, such as sunnah, the way our prophet practiced the religion, the religion as a whole
Nowadays those with the still kinda strict parents just send the kids to mosque for 2 hours a day, they learn the arabic, to read the quran and to read and learn the namaaz and du'aas etc as long as they can do that that seems to be enoughyeah and thats the problem.. indoctrination instead of education...

[The Anti Desi]

what are you though?

do u consider yourself American Muslim or Muslim American?

and I think you meant.. doesnt violate...:p
Oops :anxious:

America supports me being Muslim, so I am both......changing the orders does not change the meaning for me. I am Muslim eternally.

[The Anti Desi]

culture and religion will forever b an issue in our society and the differences between generations plays a mjor part however we was told by the prophet (pbuh) that we will unite as an ummah 1 day when times get REALLY bad which is more or less now.... even tho with all the troubles in the world islam is on revival if u compare our generation with the last u find many people now have more knowledge on islam compared to their parents...
What culture????

[Mash007]

Oops :anxious:

America supports me being Muslim, so I am both......changing the orders does not change the meaning for me. I am Muslim eternally.it does.. u gotta question what you are first..

I dont really follow any flag .... I just consider myself muslim..

where in the US you from? Is there a big muslim community there?

[The Anti Desi]

:sarb: errm i think ur wrong darling, most of our generation dont have a clue, do u really belive that most of our generation now know more about islam and the proper practice of islam than our parents ?? seriously half of the people i know dont even know which school of thought they follow and wich imam and thats despite growing up in a strong muslim community, nowadays kids are just taught the basics about the islam and not the wider issues at all, such as sunnah, the way our prophet practiced the religion, the religion as a whole
Nowadays those with the still kinda strict parents just send the kids to mosque for 2 hours a day, they learn the arabic, to read the quran and to read and learn the namaaz and du'aas etc as long as they can do that that seems to be enough
I am more religious than my parents. I am the "religious" one in my family.

[Mash007]

I am more religious than my parents. I am the "religious" one in my family.my dads religious but in all honesty he doesnt really know why he does half the stuff he does

I started reading into it a lot and when I tell him hes doing things wrong he refuses to believe me lol cos I'm not an Imam

I'm just trying to educate myself slowly .. I dont agree with a lot of the things my community does.

[londonnaz]

yeah and thats the problem.. indoctrination instead of education...


yep its true and i tottaly agree with what ur saying, i spent 2 years in a proper islamic madrasah boarding school, and even now i dont know half of what i shud, but it has enlightened me to educate myself rather than follow what everyone in the local mosque seems to be seen as correct,
as of now i have no problem in walking into any mosque in any city regardless of who and how it is run by due to the education ive had about my religion as we were taught by scholars from all over the world, indians, bengalis, south africans, arabs and the focus was the religion and not what ethnic background ur from, therefore the education of the religion is not intoxicated by ur culture or what ethnic background ur from but i have friends and this is a common problem who because of the way they have been brought up and beacuse the religion has been portrayed in a different manner ie. with the effect of thier culutre, there will be times when they will see themselves as being right as to avoid a certain mosque run by certain people or making judgements about others of those who are not from thier ethnic backgrounds, ie some bengalis having issues going into a paki run mosque or some pakis having issues going into a bengali run mosque.

[The Anti Desi]

it does.. u gotta question what you are first..

I dont really follow any flag .... I just consider myself muslim..

where in the US you from? Is there a big muslim community there?
Whichever one means I am Muslim eternally.

I live near the DC area. As for community....there is no "Muslim community". More like a brotherhood spread over the metropolitan area.

[londonnaz]

I am more religious than my parents. I am the "religious" one in my family.

jest being more religious than ur parents doesnt necessarily mean u know about ur religion more, just because u may practice more.......does that mean to say what ur practicing is exactly the way it should be :rolleyes:

[The Anti Desi]

my dads religious but in all honesty he doesnt really know why he does half the stuff he does

I started reading into it a lot and when I tell him hes doing things wrong he refuses to believe me lol cos I'm not an Imam

I'm just trying to educate myself slowly .. I dont agree with a lot of the things my community does.
I research stuff myself.....and my parents are not really carin. They admit they are not true, but they will try to remain faithful. My sister is still willing to learn, but most of her and our friends have turned agnostic.

[The Anti Desi]

jest being more religious than ur parents doesnt necessarily mean u know about ur religion more, just because u may practice more.......does that mean to say what ur practicing is exactly the way it should be :rolleyes:
I am the one doing the critical research into the Quran. I don't practice what others teach me....I only practice what I read out of the Quran.

[The Anti Desi]

By being religious....it means following the Book, not the culture.

[x_babytee_x]

:sarb: errm i think ur wrong darling, most of our generation dont have a clue, do u really belive that most of our generation now know more about islam and the proper practice of islam than our parents ?? seriously half of the people i know dont even know which school of thought they follow and wich imam and thats despite growing up in a strong muslim community, nowadays kids are just taught the basics about the islam and not the wider issues at all, such as sunnah, the way our prophet practiced the religion, the religion as a whole
Nowadays those with the still kinda strict parents just send the kids to mosque for 2 hours a day, they learn the arabic, to read the quran and to read and learn the namaaz and du'aas etc as long as they can do that that seems to be enough

trust u 2 criticise me
tell me did ya mum n dad grow up learnin religion through the sunnah or was it through culture? coz i kno for a fact my mums generation were taught it through paki culture
i disagree even tho ppl dnt really practise enuf ppl do kno the difference between right and wrong and there is a large group of muslim youths who are into islam like mash stated in another thread how everyone goes through a time of ignorance.. jus bcoz u dnt c ppl practise does not mean they dnt kno anything on religion
Also u cnt rule out ppl who send their kids to mosque to learn quran n are doing the basic coz at the end of the day who are we 2 judge? if the smallest act or dawa u do can save you from the hell fire then how can u point the finger at ppl who still practise some? its like ppl who go "holy" 4 ramadan n then the rest of the yr they act like twats, yea its wrong but the fact that they do that small amount of worshipping still gives them reward you cnt judge n ignore it
and another thing y have u all ruled out reverts? so many ppl are coming into islam its a shame that us who are blessed to b born muslims take it for granted i kno enuf revert girls who have to leave their family their friends just bcoz they want to practise islam
n that issue of "school of thought" n waeva is a pile of crap to me if ur suni u follow the quran sunnah n hadieth end of not some next crap that mixs religion up with different thought ur either on the straight path or ur not thats the thing with islam ur either on it or not cant b no inbetweeney thing
yeah i kno i aint perfect far from it go ahead criticise all u want

[londonnaz]

trust u 2 criticise me
tell me did ya mum n dad grow up learnin religion through the sunnah or was it through culture? coz i kno for a fact my mums generation were taught it through paki culture
i disagree even tho ppl dnt really practise enuf ppl do kno the difference between right and wrong and there is a large group of muslim youths who are into islam like mash stated in another thread how everyone goes through a time of ignorance.. jus bcoz u dnt c ppl practise does not mean they dnt kno anything on religion
Also u cnt rule out ppl who send their kids to mosque to learn quran n are doing the basic coz at the end of the day who are we 2 judge? if the smallest act or dawa u do can save you from the hell fire then how can u point the finger at ppl who still practise some? its like ppl who go "holy" 4 ramadan n then the rest of the yr they act like twats, yea its wrong but the fact that they do that small amount of worshipping still gives them reward you cnt judge n ignore it
and another thing y have u all ruled out reverts? so many ppl are coming into islam its a shame that us who are blessed to b born muslims take it for granted i kno enuf revert girls who have to leave their family their friends just bcoz they want to practise islam
n that issue of "school of thought" n waeva is a pile of crap to me if ur suni u follow the quran sunnah n hadieth end of not some next crap that mixs religion up with different thought ur either on the straight path or ur not thats the thing with islam ur either on it or not cant b no inbetweeney thing
yeah i kno i aint perfect far from it go ahead criticise all u want


Lol dam u took that a bit personal hun, and what do u mean school of thought is pile of crap, for u to be sunni still means ur following a school of thought, as we dont just pick up the religion ourselves, as the proper shcolars who know arabic inside out and know the transalations and how to interpret the hadith are all from one of the 4 schools of thought, unless what ur saying to me is uve done 7-8 years in an alim course and and u could pick up the hadeeth Bukhari and know how to interpret the hadeeth and thats how u practice :rolleyes:

[The Anti Desi]

Lol dam u took that a bit personal hun, and what do u mean school of thought is pile of crap, for u to be sunni still means ur following a school of thought, as we dont just pick up the religion ourselves, as the proper shcolars who know arabic inside out and know the transalations and how to interpret the hadith are all from one of the 4 schools of thought, unless what ur saying to me is uve done 7-8 years in an alim course and and u could pick up the hadeeth Bukhari and know how to interpret the hadeeth and thats how u practice :rolleyes:
And who made such a claim??? How are these schools of thought more plausible than other schools of thought??? Who authorized them????

[x_babytee_x]

Lol dam u took that a bit personal hun, and what do u mean school of thought is pile of crap, for u to be sunni still means ur following a school of thought, as we dont just pick up the religion ourselves, as the proper shcolars who know arabic inside out and know the transalations and how to interpret the hadith are all from one of the 4 schools of thought, unless what ur saying to me is uve done 7-8 years in an alim course and and u could pick up the hadeeth Bukhari and know how to interpret the hadeeth and thats how u practice :rolleyes:
lol why the sarcasim?
:rolleyes:
sorry if u thought i took it personal jus annoyin when ppl dnt understand where ur coming from... school of thought should b there when our prophet (pbuh) left us did he leave us with a variation of who we can follow? No. school of thought is yet again a cultural man made concept which has split the muslim ummah up into different sections and partys- that is why the mosques are so diverse.
and4 the record i dnt kno classical arabic inside out but my daddy does :D
and besides shouldnt ppl conclude these statement with their common sense? or is that another thing many young asian ppl lack?

[Mash007]

lol why the sarcasim?
:rolleyes:
sorry if u thought i took it personal jus annoyin when ppl dnt understand where ur coming from... school of thought should b there when our prophet (pbuh) left us did he leave us with a variation of who we can follow? No. school of thought is yet again a cultural man made concept which has split the muslim ummah up into different sections and partys- that is why the mosques are so diverse.
and4 the record i dnt kno classical arabic inside out but my daddy does :D
and besides shouldnt ppl conclude these statement with their common sense? or is that another thing many young asian ppl lack?OMG :shock:

It has a brain and isnt afraid to use it :p

next thing for you should be english lessons

[the lethal daku]

There is nothing wrong with a school of thought it is just one scholars interpretation of Hadith and Sunnah allied with the Quran...
...ppl should try and follow the quran as much as they can, and then go to scholars for guidance on smaller issues...

going back to the original topic...is "Muslim Culture essentially racist"

There is no 'muslim culture' - a culture is specific to a nation or a group of people. Punjabi culture across Muslims and Sikhs is v similar.

And no 'Muslim culture' is not racist. Just becoz people of different ethnicities do not mingle in your local mosque, doesnt make it racist. What you'll find is communities with a common language, common background will stick together. This is especially true of immigrants. And it is human nature, people with similar ethnic backgrounds, languages etc will group together...look at the Italian immigrants in the US.

But when you break it down to 2nd, 3rd generation muslims in this country there is alot more mingling amongst bengalis, punjabis, somalis etc because amongst other things their first language is English.

[The Anti Desi]

lol why the sarcasim?
:rolleyes:
sorry if u thought i took it personal jus annoyin when ppl dnt understand where ur coming from... school of thought should b there when our prophet (pbuh) left us did he leave us with a variation of who we can follow? No. school of thought is yet again a cultural man made concept which has split the muslim ummah up into different sections and partys- that is why the mosques are so diverse.
and4 the record i dnt kno classical arabic inside out but my daddy does :D
and besides shouldnt ppl conclude these statement with their common sense? or is that another thing many young asian ppl lack?
:werd:

[Mash007]

There is nothing wrong with a school of thought it is just one scholars interpretation of Hadith and Sunnah allied with the Quran...
...ppl should try and follow the quran as much as they can, and then go to scholars for guidance on smaller issues...

going back to the original topic...is "Muslim Culture essentially racist"

There is no 'muslim culture' - a culture is specific to a nation or a group of people. Punjabi culture across Muslims and Sikhs is v similar.

And no 'Muslim culture' is not racist. Just becoz people of different ethnicities do not mingle in your local mosque, doesnt make it racist. What you'll find is communities with a common language, common background will stick together. This is especially true of immigrants. And it is human nature, people with similar ethnic backgrounds, languages etc will group together...look at the Italian immigrants in the US.

But when you break it down to 2nd, 3rd generation muslims in this country there is alot more mingling amongst bengalis, punjabis, somalis etc because amongst other things their first language is English.not bad for a first post.

Salaam

so tell me .. would your rents mind you marrying out of your community..

[x_babytee_x]

OMG :shock:

It has a brain and isnt afraid to use it :p

next thing for you should be english lessons
WHY?:tears:

[QqQueen BbBee]

it's not really like that in the states... the mosques are very mixed. :)

[x_babytee_x]

:werd:
yay sum1 appriciates my brain! :dance3:

[miss_qupid]

i truly disagree, i think your statment is far too strong.....

[x_babytee_x]

There is nothing wrong with a school of thought it is just one scholars interpretation of Hadith and Sunnah allied with the Quran...
...ppl should try and follow the quran as much as they can, and then go to scholars for guidance on smaller issues...

going back to the original topic...is "Muslim Culture essentially racist"

There is no 'muslim culture' - a culture is specific to a nation or a group of people. Punjabi culture across Muslims and Sikhs is v similar.

And no 'Muslim culture' is not racist. Just becoz people of different ethnicities do not mingle in your local mosque, doesnt make it racist. What you'll find is communities with a common language, common background will stick together. This is especially true of immigrants. And it is human nature, people with similar ethnic backgrounds, languages etc will group together...look at the Italian immigrants in the US.

But when you break it down to 2nd, 3rd generation muslims in this country there is alot more mingling amongst bengalis, punjabis, somalis etc because amongst other things their first language is English.

:werd: i agree with the whole culture part
but school of thought i dnt at the end of the day its different interperations of the quran as a whole ur beta off learnin classical arabic because arabic is so specific to meaning that this crappy language english that we speak can neva fully explain its true meaning...

[Fallen-Angel]

Pakis, Bengalis, Indian, African Indian, Afghans, Blacks....

All Muslim, Yet All different tribes...

Where I live theres no mosques that are inclusive they're all exclusive... the paki mosque, the bengali mosque, the somalian mosque

and this leads into the way we live our lives and perceive other muslims 'brothers and sisters', theres no chance of marriage between us all, and if it does happen its usually against the wishes of the families involved

Islam and Culture has gotten so mixed up for the majority of Desi muslims that few know what Islam really is anymore...

you should be able to go to any mosque and feel comfortable to pray etc... but meh that just doesnt happen....

and unfortunatel it goes down to the younger gnerations too just ignorant and racist against their own without realising it...

Its a shame thats theres fuck all enlightened muslim leaders amongst the muslim community ... even if there was.. the Pakis wouldnt follow a bengali or a somalian and vice versa...

In a perfect world we would all see one another as brothers and sisters, look beyond the ethnic and see only the muslim...

What happened to One Ummah, One Faith?

do you think this will ever change?

Discuss
SO damn true is depressing........my cousin got married to a mirpuri, he is so nice, educated, finacially stable
ok his family is a bit wierd but who's isnt?
anyway there was SUCH A HUGE fuss over the fact that we're punjabi and hes Mirupuri, all our generation were like "so??? why is it a problem?"
the oldies were having heart attacks...but she persisted and mashallah they're both so happy and NOW a few years later everyones like "yeah hes a nice lad....we're glad she happy"

mind you he got the same trouble about her from his family

its so messed up! And when we voice our opinions we get called "goray"

[mr_zee_uk]

With all the comments which have been posted ,I believe in order for things to change we the 2nd and 3rd generation have to accept people for who they are and open our eyes to Islam if your black brown whatever we are all brothers and sisters in the eyes of Allah

[The Anti Desi]

SO damn true is depressing........my cousin got married to a mirpuri, he is so nice, educated, finacially stable
ok his family is a bit wierd but who's isnt?
anyway there was SUCH A HUGE fuss over the fact that we're punjabi and hes Mirupuri, all our generation were like "so??? why is it a problem?"
the oldies were having heart attacks...but she persisted and mashallah they're both so happy and NOW a few years later everyones like "yeah hes a nice lad....we're glad she happy"

mind you he got the same trouble about her from his family

its so messed up! And when we voice our opinions we get called "goray"
I rather marry a believing gora than a blasphemous Bengali, and my parents concur.

[lil_tuntuni]

Pakis, Bengalis, Indian, African Indian, Afghans, Blacks....

All Muslim, Yet All different tribes...

Where I live theres no mosques that are inclusive they're all exclusive... the paki mosque, the bengali mosque, the somalian mosque

and this leads into the way we live our lives and perceive other muslims 'brothers and sisters', theres no chance of marriage between us all, and if it does happen its usually against the wishes of the families involved

Islam and Culture has gotten so mixed up for the majority of Desi muslims that few know what Islam really is anymore...

you should be able to go to any mosque and feel comfortable to pray etc... but meh that just doesnt happen....

and unfortunatel it goes down to the younger gnerations too just ignorant and racist against their own without realising it...

Its a shame thats theres fuck all enlightened muslim leaders amongst the muslim community ... even if there was.. the Pakis wouldnt follow a bengali or a somalian and vice versa...

In a perfect world we would all see one another as brothers and sisters, look beyond the ethnic and see only the muslim...

What happened to One Ummah, One Faith?

do you think this will ever change?

Discuss


It is a shame. Muslims have totally lost their sense of unity,and that's why I think we're facing so many problems these days. Islam recorgnizes no race,color, gender...People forget they are Muslim first, then they are whatever race they are. Yeah I understand the cultural differences, but we all pray to the same Allah, and are all followers of the Prophet Muhammed (S), and act as if we practice what it says what the Quran says. Well if we actually did follow what the Quran said there wouldn't be as many problems. It's not really as bad here in Atlanta, we have people from all over the world at the mosques and no one feels like an outcast anywhere. Insh'Allah it'll stay that way. I read somewhere there are 76 tribes in Islam (I'm not sure of the number) but out of all the tribes, only one tribe will go to Heaven(I'm not sure about the validity of this, but I'll look it up)....But yeah, the I do believe the true believers with strong Imans will unite one day, and things will get better...

[WhatDidYouSay!?]

hmmm...

[The Anti Desi]

It is a shame. Muslims have totally lost their sense of unity,and that's why I think we're facing so many problems these days. Islam recorgnizes no race,color, gender...People forget they are Muslim first, then they are whatever race they are. Yeah I understand the cultural differences, but we all pray to the same Allah, and are all followers of the Prophet Muhammed (S), and act as if we practice what it says what the Quran says. Well if we actually did follow what the Quran said there wouldn't be as many problems. It's not really as bad here in Atlanta, we have people from all over the world at the mosques and no one feels like an outcast anywhere. Insh'Allah it'll stay that way. I read somewhere there are 76 tribes in Islam (I'm not sure of the number) but out of all the tribes, only one tribe will go to Heaven(I'm not sure about the validity of this, but I'll look it up)....But yeah, the I do believe the true believers with strong Imans will unite one day, and things will get better...
Believed by the concensus of those who call themselves "Muslim", but it has no Quranic basis.

[lil_tuntuni]

Believed by the concensus of those who call themselves "Muslim", but it has no Quranic basis.
Yeah that's what I thought as well....Like I said,I wasn't sure..thanks for clearing that up

[Fallen-Angel]

hang on...I swear ive actually read that from the qur'an itself, because i started reading it in english right and there was a verse something like theres a 100sects of Islam..christianity and Judaism but only one is the right one cant remember about the heaven thing..HOWEVER i was hearing a talk by a really good scholar and he read a verse which said something like "hold firm to the rope and do not stray" and he was saying that this means that we should stick together and not divide ourselves by giving each other names like "sunni" and "shiah" because that would be straying and thus going agaisnt the word of god, cos at the end of the day the prophet was a Muslim not a sunni or shiah or anything else.

[arbigooner]

Believed by the concensus of those who call themselves "Muslim", but it has no Quranic basis.
and there goes the thread.... :wavey:

[jigga man23]

Pakis, Bengalis, Indian, African Indian, Afghans, Blacks....

All Muslim, Yet All different tribes...

Where I live theres no mosques that are inclusive they're all exclusive... the paki mosque, the bengali mosque, the somalian mosque

and this leads into the way we live our lives and perceive other muslims 'brothers and sisters', theres no chance of marriage between us all, and if it does happen its usually against the wishes of the families involved

Islam and Culture has gotten so mixed up for the majority of Desi muslims that few know what Islam really is anymore...

you should be able to go to any mosque and feel comfortable to pray etc... but meh that just doesnt happen....

and unfortunatel it goes down to the younger gnerations too just ignorant and racist against their own without realising it...

Its a shame thats theres fuck all enlightened muslim leaders amongst the muslim community ... even if there was.. the Pakis wouldnt follow a bengali or a somalian and vice versa...

In a perfect world we would all see one another as brothers and sisters, look beyond the ethnic and see only the muslim...

What happened to One Ummah, One Faith?

do you think this will ever change?

Discuss
Sadly..true

[Mash007]

hang on...I swear ive actually read that from the qur'an itself, because i started reading it in english right and there was a verse something like theres a 100sects of Islam..christianity and Judaism but only one is the right one cant remember about the heaven thing..HOWEVER i was hearing a talk by a really good scholar and he read a verse which said something like "hold firm to the rope and do not stray" and he was saying that this means that we should stick together and not divide ourselves by giving each other names like "sunni" and "shiah" because that would be straying and thus going agaisnt the word of god, cos at the end of the day the prophet was a Muslim not a sunni or shiah or anything else.good point

I rather marry a believing gora than a blasphemous Bengali, and my parents concur.:werd: my parents don't concur but I dont care anymore.

SO damn true is depressing........my cousin got married to a mirpuri, he is so nice, educated, finacially stable
ok his family is a bit wierd but who's isnt?
anyway there was SUCH A HUGE fuss over the fact that we're punjabi and hes Mirupuri, all our generation were like "so??? why is it a problem?"
the oldies were having heart attacks...but she persisted and mashallah they're both so happy and NOW a few years later everyones like "yeah hes a nice lad....we're glad she happy"

mind you he got the same trouble about her from his family

its so messed up! And when we voice our opinions we get called "goray"happens too often

i truly disagree, i think your statment is far too strong.....well.. please elaborate..

WHY?:tears:you have a tendency to do that txt typing... twas a joke tho

[MolviCorleone]

Pakis, Bengalis, Indian, African Indian, Afghans, Blacks....

All Muslim, Yet All different tribes...

Where I live theres no mosques that are inclusive they're all exclusive... the paki mosque, the bengali mosque, the somalian mosque

and this leads into the way we live our lives and perceive other muslims 'brothers and sisters', theres no chance of marriage between us all, and if it does happen its usually against the wishes of the families involved

Islam and Culture has gotten so mixed up for the majority of Desi muslims that few know what Islam really is anymore...

you should be able to go to any mosque and feel comfortable to pray etc... but meh that just doesnt happen....

and unfortunatel it goes down to the younger gnerations too just ignorant and racist against their own without realising it...

Its a shame thats theres fuck all enlightened muslim leaders amongst the muslim community ... even if there was.. the Pakis wouldnt follow a bengali or a somalian and vice versa...

In a perfect world we would all see one another as brothers and sisters, look beyond the ethnic and see only the muslim...

What happened to One Ummah, One Faith?

do you think this will ever change?





Discuss

your right, haha no wonder you were asking me questions.

and mash bro, you should know better, what happened to the ummah?
isnt it obvious man, its the times, its been prophesized, its meant to be this way, if it was all perfect then life wouldnt be much of a test would it.

also jameecuns smell.

[dutsqg]

Pakis, Bengalis, Indian, African Indian, Afghans, Blacks....

All Muslim, Yet All different tribes...

Where I live theres no mosques that are inclusive they're all exclusive... the paki mosque, the bengali mosque, the somalian mosque

and this leads into the way we live our lives and perceive other muslims 'brothers and sisters', theres no chance of marriage between us all, and if it does happen its usually against the wishes of the families involved

Islam and Culture has gotten so mixed up for the majority of Desi muslims that few know what Islam really is anymore...

you should be able to go to any mosque and feel comfortable to pray etc... but meh that just doesnt happen....

and unfortunatel it goes down to the younger gnerations too just ignorant and racist against their own without realising it...

Its a shame thats theres fuck all enlightened muslim leaders amongst the muslim community ... even if there was.. the Pakis wouldnt follow a bengali or a somalian and vice versa...

In a perfect world we would all see one another as brothers and sisters, look beyond the ethnic and see only the muslim...

What happened to One Ummah, One Faith?

do you think this will ever change?

Discuss


I dont know the validity of "muslim ethnic culture" but i do agree with some of your sayings.

I haven't noticed it in my town but I have heard of things like this in South Africa.

A friend told that there was a black man at an 'indian' masjid and he was kicked out of the wudu area and told he cannot pray at the masjid.

But yaeh , these are cultural innovations are stupid.

And not to mention

sometimes it seems liek a lot of desi muslims try to keep an image that Indian and pakistani muslims are the best muslims on the planet.

[x_babytee_x]

you have a tendency to do that txt typing... twas a joke tho

Well I am a lazy child, please do forgive me Sir Mash

[illin]

Pakis, Bengalis, Indian, African Indian, Afghans, Blacks....

Islam and Culture has gotten so mixed up
so true

you should be able to go to any mosque and feel comfortable to pray etc... but meh that just doesnt happen....


you can do that here in canada, but it exists on more subtle levels.

[anny]

yea they ve added kinda different shit things wid islam..bt nt totally change...all muslims frm all ova da world...go in same mosque & pray in same way...no change...can say em muslim..

[suhailio]

Pakis, Bengalis, Indian, African Indian, Afghans, Blacks....

All Muslim, Yet All different tribes...

Where I live theres no mosques that are inclusive they're all exclusive... the paki mosque, the bengali mosque, the somalian mosque

and this leads into the way we live our lives and perceive other muslims 'brothers and sisters', theres no chance of marriage between us all, and if it does happen its usually against the wishes of the families involved

Islam and Culture has gotten so mixed up for the majority of Desi muslims that few know what Islam really is anymore...

you should be able to go to any mosque and feel comfortable to pray etc... but meh that just doesnt happen....

and unfortunatel it goes down to the younger gnerations too just ignorant and racist against their own without realising it...

Its a shame thats theres fuck all enlightened muslim leaders amongst the muslim community ... even if there was.. the Pakis wouldnt follow a bengali or a somalian and vice versa...

In a perfect world we would all see one another as brothers and sisters, look beyond the ethnic and see only the muslim...

What happened to One Ummah, One Faith?

do you think this will ever change?

Discuss

Islam, the religion itself has never been changed since day one....all muslims 'should' behave in the sameway....but nowdays we are weak muslims, thats y people consider us of doing different things even though we all are muslims....

[Z4K5T4R]

Yeh the thinking of Muslims will change and mixed marriages will happen in the next generation. However, that would be when Muslims will lose their touch of Islam and hold no knowledge of Islam, so , as well as mixed ethnic marriages - you will get mixed religion marriages.

I don't see anything wrong with mix ethnic marriages as long as you follow your religion. But it's the people of Islam that interpet to what suits them. It isn't to do with muslims being racists. Just the fact that people like to keep their own ethnic minority within themself and think that cultural differences will affect their sons/daughters future and they prefer not to risk that.

I guess when we are parents will we understand why but maybe by then we will accept these terms of mixed marriages.

[gangsta_bitch]

Pakis, Bengalis, Indian, African Indian, Afghans, Blacks....

All Muslim, Yet All different tribes...

Where I live theres no mosques that are inclusive they're all exclusive... the paki mosque, the bengali mosque, the somalian mosque

and this leads into the way we live our lives and perceive other muslims 'brothers and sisters', theres no chance of marriage between us all, and if it does happen its usually against the wishes of the families involved

Islam and Culture has gotten so mixed up for the majority of Desi muslims that few know what Islam really is anymore...

you should be able to go to any mosque and feel comfortable to pray etc... but meh that just doesnt happen....

and unfortunatel it goes down to the younger gnerations too just ignorant and racist against their own without realising it...

Its a shame thats theres fuck all enlightened muslim leaders amongst the muslim community ... even if there was.. the Pakis wouldnt follow a bengali or a somalian and vice versa...

In a perfect world we would all see one another as brothers and sisters, look beyond the ethnic and see only the muslim...

What happened to One Ummah, One Faith?

do you think this will ever change?

Discuss

it may change 10/20 years down the line when culture & religion will slow die down but for the time being i dont think it will change... and yeah i agree with you - separate mosques for different ethnicities yet one religion?? personally i dont like that because when my dad walks into a mosque (be it a paki/bengali/somali one) he always gets stared at just because he's a "gora" so they say... but he's still amuslim - why should his skin colour make any difference?? he's come to pray just like the rest of them but it just doesnt happen... and wont change for quite some time i think :no:

[Z4K5T4R]

it may change 10/20 years down the line when culture & religion will slow die down but for the time being i dont think it will change... and yeah i agree with you - separate mosques for different ethnicities yet one religion?? personally i dont like that because when my dad walks into a mosque (be it a paki/bengali/somali one) he always gets stared at just because he's a "gora" so they say... but he's still amuslim - why should his skin colour make any difference?? he's come to pray just like the rest of them but it just doesnt happen... and wont change for quite some time i think :no:
The one in Bristol down Easton thats mixed isn't it? Well I know the one down weston is mixed and i was taught by a gujrati imam.

[gangsta_bitch]

The one in Bristol down Easton thats mixed isn't it? Well I know the one down weston is mixed and i was taught by a gujrati imam.

theres around 3 mosques in Easton... ones apparently for sunni's, ones apparently for shi'its and the other for bengalis... not good :no:

anyway how you been?? :D

[londonnaz]

hang on...I swear ive actually read that from the qur'an itself, because i started reading it in english right and there was a verse something like theres a 100sects of Islam..christianity and Judaism but only one is the right one cant remember about the heaven thing..HOWEVER i was hearing a talk by a really good scholar and he read a verse which said something like "hold firm to the rope and do not stray" and he was saying that this means that we should stick together and not divide ourselves by giving each other names like "sunni" and "shiah" because that would be straying and thus going agaisnt the word of god, cos at the end of the day the prophet was a Muslim not a sunni or shiah or anything else.

:wavey:
your getting ur concept of sunni & shia mixed up, 2 tottaly different things and could probably start a whole another debate

[londonnaz]

:werd: i agree with the whole culture part
but school of thought i dnt at the end of the day its different interperations of the quran as a whole ur beta off learnin classical arabic because arabic is so specific to meaning that this crappy language english that we speak can neva fully explain its true meaning...


that only takes about 8 years of full time education and then uve only just hit the tip of the iceberg, after that then u can go on to the interpretations and transalations of the hadeeth, not every can do that and its not an obligation for us to do that but that is why we have our scholars and imams and alims

[x_babytee_x]

that only takes about 8 years of full time education and then uve only just hit the tip of the iceberg, after that then u can go on to the interpretations and transalations of the hadeeth, not every can do that and its not an obligation for us to do that but that is why we have our scholars and imams and alims

true my dad has all d time in d world to learn all of it but when it comes to us kids its a different issue, ur right but then who do u know to trust?

[The Anti Desi]

that only takes about 8 years of full time education and then uve only just hit the tip of the iceberg, after that then u can go on to the interpretations and transalations of the hadeeth, not every can do that and its not an obligation for us to do that but that is why we have our scholars and imams and alims
Where did you attain that concept???

[The Anti Desi]

:wavey:
your getting ur concept of sunni & shia mixed up, 2 tottaly different things and could probably start a whole another debate
How is she getting the concepts mixed up???

[zaph69]

did anyone hear the speech tariq ramadan gave when he visited the UK in the summer? it was at some muslim conference organised by the Islam Channel (i THINK). it was an excellent speech, and he challenged muslims to lay down the tribalism.

[zaph69]

i reckon our generation's going to be quite good at that kind of thing; in the medical school itself i don't see any real segregation due to ethnicity. that's not to deny that some ethnics clump together out of common values and experience, that's to be expected - just like i tell a lot of the asians to wind their necks in when they criticise me for hanging out with "gora" public school boys.

i've seen the crowds of paki rude boys, bengali rude boys, the arabs in their own corner, but i haven't seen THAT much of a problem with intermingling of ethnicities. however i did come from ireland, and my only experience of asian youth in this country is what i see in medical school, so perhaps my experiences are unintentionally skewed somewhat.

if we take some classic examples of ethnic tensions in the past:
INDIA vs. PAKISTAN
ARABS "hating" INDIANS
SUNNI's vs SHIA's

what do you guys feel about such well-defined conflicts and where they are represented in the current asian youth in this country? certainly i've seen the sunni-shia tension in islamic society politics, but essentially that's inevitable. i can't say i've seen much indo-pak tension either and some of my closest friends here are pakistani and arab (i'm indian).

as i said, my experiences are limited, i'd really like to hear what other people have to say on this kind of thing!

[londonnaz]

How is she getting the concepts mixed up???


because sunnis and shias is a whole another issue as oppose to ethnic culture, essentially we are talking about our ethnic cultures wich have influenced the way islam is taught or practiced and this thread starter is talking about how it has now seen to become racist stick to the topic and then ull realise what im talking about im not looking for an argument with u,

sunni'ism and shia;ism goes to back to whole another issue about the passing of the caliphates and the leaders who embraced and carried forward the message of islam after our prophet p.b.u.h

and as to ur other quote, it isnt compulsory or obligatory for all muslims to become imams or alims thats why not everyone does it or is capable of doing it especially in the western societies our generations are growing up in nowadays, what is compulsory has clearly been laid out as our "Farz" in our religion wich we are obliged to keep, maybe u can show me where it says it is farz for us to become an imam or an alim in order to practice and understand our religion properly ?? :rolleyes:

[londonnaz]

i reckon our generation's going to be quite good at that kind of thing; in the medical school itself i don't see any real segregation due to ethnicity. that's not to deny that some ethnics clump together out of common values and experience, that's to be expected - just like i tell a lot of the asians to wind their necks in when they criticise me for hanging out with "gora" public school boys.

i've seen the crowds of paki rude boys, bengali rude boys, the arabs in their own corner, but i haven't seen THAT much of a problem with intermingling of ethnicities. however i did come from ireland, and my only experience of asian youth in this country is what i see in medical school, so perhaps my experiences are unintentionally skewed somewhat.

if we take some classic examples of ethnic tensions in the past:
INDIA vs. PAKISTAN
ARABS "hating" INDIANS
SUNNI's vs SHIA's

what do you guys feel about such well-defined conflicts and where they are represented in the current asian youth in this country? certainly i've seen the sunni-shia tension in islamic society politics, but essentially that's inevitable. i can't say i've seen much indo-pak tension either and some of my closest friends here are pakistani and arab (i'm indian).

as i said, my experiences are limited, i'd really like to hear what other people have to say on this kind of thing!


ur going way offtopic

[L_A_X__addiction]

Pakis, Bengalis, Indian, African Indian, Afghans, Blacks....

All Muslim, Yet All different tribes...

Where I live theres no mosques that are inclusive they're all exclusive... the paki mosque, the bengali mosque, the somalian mosque

and this leads into the way we live our lives and perceive other muslims 'brothers and sisters', theres no chance of marriage between us all, and if it does happen its usually against the wishes of the families involved

Islam and Culture has gotten so mixed up for the majority of Desi muslims that few know what Islam really is anymore...

you should be able to go to any mosque and feel comfortable to pray etc... but meh that just doesnt happen....

and unfortunatel it goes down to the younger gnerations too just ignorant and racist against their own without realising it...

Its a shame thats theres fuck all enlightened muslim leaders amongst the muslim community ... even if there was.. the Pakis wouldnt follow a bengali or a somalian and vice versa...

In a perfect world we would all see one another as brothers and sisters, look beyond the ethnic and see only the muslim...

What happened to One Ummah, One Faith?

do you think this will ever change?

Discuss

different cultures interpret Islam and practice it differently in their daily lives. for example, they put stress on different things. people feel that they can identify more with those in their culture who share similar if not the same values as them. there's a higher likelihood that 2 indian muslims will have the same values than there is that an indian muslim and a somalian muslim will have the same values.

[londonnaz]

different cultures interpret Islam and practice it differently in their daily lives. for example, they put stress on different things. people feel that they can identify more with those in their culture who share similar if not the same values as them. there's a higher likelihood that 2 indian muslims will have the same values than there is that an indian muslim and a somalian muslim will have the same values.

:werd:
Thank u

That is what were trying to establish an discuss, effectively what were asking here is how our ethnic backgrounds and our desi cultures contaminate the way we practice islam, and weather or not this is seen as racist to some people as it may come accross like that throughout the different communities, and more and more as we read through the thread it clearly seems to be the case that the culture we are brought up in has a masive impact on the way we practice islam, and clearly this is where the fault lies as the thread maker stated earlier, what we need is greater education on islam and not just indoctrination by our local imams and mosques.

[Fallen-Angel]

nope i know the difference trust me, half my family's "shiah" and the other "sunni" but it causes conflict fo rno reason my whole family call themselves Muslim full stop.

[Carlitos Way]

Pakis, Bengalis, Indian, African Indian, Afghans, Blacks....

All Muslim, Yet All different tribes...

Where I live theres no mosques that are inclusive they're all exclusive... the paki mosque, the bengali mosque, the somalian mosque

and this leads into the way we live our lives and perceive other muslims 'brothers and sisters', theres no chance of marriage between us all, and if it does happen its usually against the wishes of the families involved

Islam and Culture has gotten so mixed up for the majority of Desi muslims that few know what Islam really is anymore...

you should be able to go to any mosque and feel comfortable to pray etc... but meh that just doesnt happen....

and unfortunatel it goes down to the younger gnerations too just ignorant and racist against their own without realising it...

Its a shame thats theres fuck all enlightened muslim leaders amongst the muslim community ... even if there was.. the Pakis wouldnt follow a bengali or a somalian and vice versa...

In a perfect world we would all see one another as brothers and sisters, look beyond the ethnic and see only the muslim...

What happened to One Ummah, One Faith?

do you think this will ever change?

Discuss
society, greed etc.......has changed people's way of thinking
Asians or Arabs Muslims etc.........are all hypocrites in their own way
that's how the world is running today.......the botherhood has long gone...........

[miss_qupid]

I disagree....again.......


In our religion so ive heard, that its best to get married to the same nationals, this is to avoid culture clash for children....and members of family.
imagine a somalian and pakistani getting marrid, can you imagine the difficulti both family would have to go through and then it could put the couples marriage on the line, i.e lack of comunication.....

My family is pretty happy with me marrying different nationalities, but bcus my upbringings are pakistani, i like my culture, i like our traditions, our cloths and im attracted to same type....

I have to believe that nowaday generation questions alot more, and gains alot more knowledge then ever before. People in islam are now defining the difference between religion and culture.

How often do you visit a mosque, how many mosques have you visited, how many somalians, bangladeshi's, indians, africans do you know to actually come with such an assumption....

[Carlitos Way]

if your already in that system of thinking how you gonna change people...........
too much ego, pride and all of the bullshit what comes with it............ayeeeeeee

[londonnaz]

I disagree....again.......


In our religion so ive heard, that its best to get married to the same nationals, this is to avoid culture clash for children....and members of family.
imagine a somalian and pakistani getting marrid, can you imagine the difficulti both family would have to go through and then it could put the couples marriage on the line, i.e lack of comunication.....

My family is pretty happy with me marrying different nationalities, but bcus my upbringings are pakistani, i like my culture, i like our traditions, our cloths and im attracted to same type....

I have to believe that nowaday generation questions alot more, and gains alot more knowledge then ever before. People in islam are now defining the difference between religion and culture.

How often do you visit a mosque, how many mosques have you visited, how many somalians, bangladeshi's, indians, africans do you know to actually come with such an assumption....



what are u disagreeing with ? :sarb:

[londonnaz]

society, greed etc.......has changed people's way of thinking
Asians or Arabs Muslims etc.........are all hypocrites in their own way
that's how the world is running today.......the botherhood has long gone...........


Another key fact that were forgetting here, wich may bring an answer to the thread,
These are all the signs of qayamat, all the minor signs have past right before our eyes, we our now living thru the majority of the minor signs,

and all that awaits us now is the major ones, and one of the key major signs, the breakdown of Islam and sectarianism, as it will get divided into so many groups and sects and practiced and taught so differently wher one muslim may not recognise or choose to accept or recognise another muslim ie from a different culuture or ethnic background and see him as different and wrong and rather just stick to his own , there will come a point where it will be practiced a 100 different ways and start to lose its real identity as whole, to a point where where it will be at the brink of its real existence and only a handful of true followers and believers of it will remain, wich is when Imam Mehdi will return to bring the ummah together as a whole and unite them,
first he will wage war upon his own so called muslims cleansing out his own people first "Munafiqeens" muslims by name who proclaim they muslim but hardly practice at all, and those that do but still lead a double Hipocritical life along side and value the modern western society and way of life, typical example our younger generation as it is now, (sex, drugs an rock an roll or R n B as it is nowadays lol,) and then he will wage war against the non believers from where Islam will rise again to its full and powerful glory as one Ummah

dont get me wrong im not trying to preach to anyone out there as im the first to hold my hand up and admit im a hypocrite and i live my life in sin and im a bad muslim, but i have the intention of fixing my ways and slowly but surely and inshallah i will.
im just making a point and trying to give my view on the matter on this thread and provide maybe some sort of useful explanation as it is clear that this is happening all around us now and this is something that was stated over 1400 years ago.

[arbigooner]

good post ^^

[The Anti Desi]

because sunnis and shias is a whole another issue as oppose to ethnic culture, essentially we are talking about our ethnic cultures wich have influenced the way islam is taught or practiced and this thread starter is talking about how it has now seen to become racist stick to the topic and then ull realise what im talking about im not looking for an argument with u,

sunni'ism and shia;ism goes to back to whole another issue about the passing of the caliphates and the leaders who embraced and carried forward the message of islam after our prophet p.b.u.h

and as to ur other quote, it isnt compulsory or obligatory for all muslims to become imams or alims thats why not everyone does it or is capable of doing it especially in the western societies our generations are growing up in nowadays, what is compulsory has clearly been laid out as our "Farz" in our religion wich we are obliged to keep, maybe u can show me where it says it is farz for us to become an imam or an alim in order to practice and understand our religion properly ?? :rolleyes:
I thought you said she was getting Shia vs. Sunni mixed up....not digressing from the topic.

As for imams and alims, where does the Quran mention such a concept. You attain knowledge by reading it yourself, not getting from an intermediary......thats one of the big mistakes made in Christianity. Living in western society is not excuse for not reading. The book is easy to read.

12:1 A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book.

19:97 So have We made the (Qur'an) easy in thine own tongue, that with it thou mayest give Glad Tidings to the righteous, and warnings to people given to contention.

44:58 Verily, We have made this (Qur'an) easy, in thy tongue, in order that they may give heed.

54:17 And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

54:22 But We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

54:32 And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

54:40 And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

If you want to attain knowledge, you get it yourself.

17:36 And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning).

I might get into discussions with some Imams about Quranic quotes, but for the most part, I don't go to scholars, Imams, Alims. I read the Quran myself.

[The Anti Desi]

I disagree....again.......


In our religion so ive heard, that its best to get married to the same nationals, this is to avoid culture clash for children....and members of family.
imagine a somalian and pakistani getting marrid, can you imagine the difficulti both family would have to go through and then it could put the couples marriage on the line, i.e lack of comunication.....

My family is pretty happy with me marrying different nationalities, but bcus my upbringings are pakistani, i like my culture, i like our traditions, our cloths and im attracted to same type....

I have to believe that nowaday generation questions alot more, and gains alot more knowledge then ever before. People in islam are now defining the difference between religion and culture.

How often do you visit a mosque, how many mosques have you visited, how many somalians, bangladeshi's, indians, africans do you know to actually come with such an assumption....
Not supported by the Quran.

Look at me, the preppy dressing bhangra Bengali metalhead, who might marry a Latina Salsa goth girl or Japanese girl, or a white girl.......culture is different.....as long as she believes in Islam, that is what matters.

Islam has no culture, just a set of laws. You can follow any culture, as long as it does not break the laws :D

[The Anti Desi]

Another key fact that were forgetting here, wich may bring an answer to the thread,
These are all the signs of qayamat, all the minor signs have past right before our eyes, we our now living thru the majority of the minor signs,

and all that awaits us now is the major ones, and one of the key major signs, the breakdown of Islam and sectarianism, as it will get divided into so many groups and sects and practiced and taught so differently wher one muslim may not recognise or choose to accept or recognise another muslim ie from a different culuture or ethnic background and see him as different and wrong and rather just stick to his own , there will come a point where it will be practiced a 100 different ways and start to lose its real identity as whole, to a point where where it will be at the brink of its real existence and only a handful of true followers and believers of it will remain, wich is when Imam Mehdi will return to bring the ummah together as a whole and unite them,
first he will wage war upon his own so called muslims cleansing out his own people first "Munafiqeens" muslims by name who proclaim they muslim but hardly practice at all, and those that do but still lead a double Hipocritical life along side and value the modern western society and way of life, typical example our younger generation as it is now, (sex, drugs an rock an roll or R n B as it is nowadays lol,) and then he will wage war against the non believers from where Islam will rise again to its full and powerful glory as one Ummah
dont get me wrong im not trying to preach to anyone out there as im the first to hold my hand up and admit im a hypocrite and i live my life in sin and im a bad muslim, but i have the intention of fixing my ways and slowly but surely and inshallah i will.
im just making a point and trying to give my view on the matter on this thread and provide maybe some sort of useful explanation as it is clear that this is happening all around us now and this is something that was stated over 1400 years ago.
Where did this story come from????

[Carlitos Way]

Another key fact that were forgetting here, wich may bring an answer to the thread,
These are all the signs of qayamat, all the minor signs have past right before our eyes, we our now living thru the majority of the minor signs,

and all that awaits us now is the major ones, and one of the key major signs, the breakdown of Islam and sectarianism, as it will get divided into so many groups and sects and practiced and taught so differently wher one muslim may not recognise or choose to accept or recognise another muslim ie from a different culuture or ethnic background and see him as different and wrong and rather just stick to his own , there will come a point where it will be practiced a 100 different ways and start to lose its real identity as whole, to a point where where it will be at the brink of its real existence and only a handful of true followers and believers of it will remain, wich is when Imam Mehdi will return to bring the ummah together as a whole and unite them,
first he will wage war upon his own so called muslims cleansing out his own people first "Munafiqeens" muslims by name who proclaim they muslim but hardly practice at all, and those that do but still lead a double Hipocritical life along side and value the modern western society and way of life, typical example our younger generation as it is now, (sex, drugs an rock an roll or R n B as it is nowadays lol,) and then he will wage war against the non believers from where Islam will rise again to its full and powerful glory as one Ummah

dont get me wrong im not trying to preach to anyone out there as im the first to hold my hand up and admit im a hypocrite and i live my life in sin and im a bad muslim, but i have the intention of fixing my ways and slowly but surely and inshallah i will.
im just making a point and trying to give my view on the matter on this thread and provide maybe some sort of useful explanation as it is clear that this is happening all around us now and this is something that was stated over 1400 years ago.
ur bang on target where u get the info from???????

[londonnaz]

Where did this story come from????


what do u mean story lol ??? Do some reserach brother if u think that is a story ur way off the mark, this is all from authentic hadeeth and for the signs of qayamat and the lead up to the judgement day, and for u to claim that as a story means im not gonna waste another second on u coz u seriously dont know what ur talking about and i think ur always just looking for an argument :wavey:

[Fallen-Angel]

what do u mean story lol ??? Do some reserach brother if u think that is a story ur way off the mark, this is all from authentic hadeeth and for the signs of qayamat and the lead up to the judgement day, and for u to claim that as a story means im not gonna waste another second on u coz u seriously dont know what ur talking about and i think ur always just looking for an argument :wavey:
yeh i agree, ive definatley read that straight out of a book, quotes and all..i was reading about the signs of Qiyammah and the Dajjal and the coming of Imam Mehdi was in there as a sign before qiyammah

[the lethal daku]

Interesting post about the mehdi!

Going back to the topic, and people commenting on inter racial marraige (pakistani and a somali - lol) , again I think it comes down to education and open mindedness.

As both husband and wife are educated, and an understanding of Islam the marraige will work. Islam accounts for 95% of cultural similiarities across "cultures". There has to be compromise in any marriage, whether it be due to ones personality, or in this case ones background...(If a pakistani guy marries a bengali, both of them should take the effect to partially learn each others languages!)

Indeed Islam was spread by inter racial (and inter religious) marriages. Arabs took Syrian Christians as wives during the early years of Islamic rule in that region. Indonesia has never seen a muslim army, and Islam was spread through those islands by traders who mingled with the locals. The same is true of Kerala in South India...

I think muslims in the UK will develop their own distinct "culture" as time goes by, its up to this generation to get rid of the negative stereotypes about different races of muslims. I am talking specifically of Indian/Pakistani/bangladeshi friction, and negative stereotypes about black muslims...

...you cannot be narrow minded...and education is the keyy!

[jam_miro_quai]

Pakis, Bengalis, Indian, African Indian, Afghans, Blacks....

All Muslim, Yet All different tribes...

Where I live theres no mosques that are inclusive they're all exclusive... the paki mosque, the bengali mosque, the somalian mosque

and this leads into the way we live our lives and perceive other muslims 'brothers and sisters', theres no chance of marriage between us all, and if it does happen its usually against the wishes of the families involved

Islam and Culture has gotten so mixed up for the majority of Desi muslims that few know what Islam really is anymore...

you should be able to go to any mosque and feel comfortable to pray etc... but meh that just doesnt happen....

and unfortunatel it goes down to the younger gnerations too just ignorant and racist against their own without realising it...

Its a shame thats theres fuck all enlightened muslim leaders amongst the muslim community ... even if there was.. the Pakis wouldnt follow a bengali or a somalian and vice versa...

In a perfect world we would all see one another as brothers and sisters, look beyond the ethnic and see only the muslim...

What happened to One Ummah, One Faith?

do you think this will ever change?

Discuss


I hate it when these threads are made because the truth is the people who make them do shit all about it anyway. Most of them sit on there asses and don't learn anything about their religion. Thats why Muslims ended up in this situation in the first place, cos all they have are a bunch of retards that sit on their monkey asses complaining their whole lives and in the end they done nothing to improve or correct the situation.

If u got a problem with it I suggest you do something about it instead of being one of these G-Units who just talk all the time. When somethings done about it then post it so people can learn from ur experiences. Until then your post is a bigger joke than some of the people who run Mosques now a days.

[Indian_Eyess]

I hate it when these threads are made because the truth is the people who make them do shit all about it anyway. Most of them sit on there asses and don't learn anything about their religion anyway. Thats why Muslims ended up in this situation in the frst place, cos all the have are a bunch of retards that sit on their monkey asses complaining their whole lives and in the end they done nothing to improve or correct the situation.

If u got a problem with it I suggest you do something about it instead of being one of these G-Units who just talk all the time and when somethings done about it then post it so people can learn from ur experiences. Until then your post is a bigger joke than some of the people who run Mosques now a days.
Amen brotha

[SillyKitty]

I hate it when these threads are made because the truth is the people who make them do shit all about it anyway. Most of them sit on there asses and don't learn anything about their religion. Thats why Muslims ended up in this situation in the first place, cos all they have are a bunch of retards that sit on their monkey asses complaining their whole lives and in the end they done nothing to improve or correct the situation.

If u got a problem with it I suggest you do something about it instead of being one of these G-Units who just talk all the time. When somethings done about it then post it so people can learn from ur experiences. Until then your post is a bigger joke than some of the people who run Mosques now a days.


Amen :clap:


nice.. but a lil harsh :anxious:

[redlightnin]

I hate it when these threads are made because the truth is the people who make them do shit all about it anyway. Most of them sit on there asses and don't learn anything about their religion. Thats why Muslims ended up in this situation in the first place, cos all they have are a bunch of retards that sit on their monkey asses complaining their whole lives and in the end they done nothing to improve or correct the situation.

If u got a problem with it I suggest you do something about it instead of being one of these G-Units who just talk all the time. When somethings done about it then post it so people can learn from ur experiences. Until then your post is a bigger joke than some of the people who run Mosques now a days.
r0fl. True. I'm Muslim, n even I agree w/ u. Sure there are people who do something about it, but they're not in abundance.

[Waliy Allah]

I might get into discussions with some Imams about Quranic quotes, but for the most part, I don't go to scholars, Imams, Alims. I read the Quran myself.
Assalamu Alaikum

So you're a progressive Muslim?

Personally I don't find the philosophy very appealing. How do we, as individuals, know more than scholars who specialize in the field? It makes a joke of ijtihad and, instead of reforming themselves, progressive Muslims tend to tailor religion to their preferences. I don't mean to offend you; that's just my opinion.

Salam.

[jam_miro_quai]

r0fl. True. I'm Muslim, n even I agree w/ u. Sure there are people who do something about it, but they're not in abundance.

??????????????? Why do u think i'm not a muslim? Also do u presume i'm not a practicing one?

[The Anti Desi]

what do u mean story lol ??? Do some reserach brother if u think that is a story ur way off the mark, this is all from authentic hadeeth and for the signs of qayamat and the lead up to the judgement day, and for u to claim that as a story means im not gonna waste another second on u coz u seriously dont know what ur talking about and i think ur always just looking for an argument :wavey:
This is being said to someone who does not believe in the hadith concept. Unless it was supported by the Quran, you don't convince me.

[jam_miro_quai]

Assalamu Alaikum

So you're a progressive Muslim?

Personally I don't find the philosophy very appealing. How do we, as individuals, know more than scholars who specialize in the field? It makes a joke of ijtihad and, instead of reforming themselves, progressive Muslims tend to tailor religion to their preferences. I don't mean to offend you; that's just my opinion.

Salam.

Good post. people dont wanna know about the religion at all and decide to go their own way. what people dont realise is that although reading the Qu'ran is always a good thing, Islam has alwys been a religion which is taught.

What people dont understand is that even the Prophets (pbuh) companions (who were considered the people of the best character) didn't even trust themsleves enough to teach themselves. They always used the motion of teacher-to-student and if uv studied under a reliable shayk or scholar then ud realise how important it is.

EXAMPLE: A typical example is that if the Qu'ran is translated directly into english word for word. The religion says it's ok to hit ur wife. Anyone who knows anything about Islam knows that this isnt right. But when translated correctly into English it shows that the passage actually says that the limits of physicality towards ur wife is of the smallest level. A level which actually is pointless in terms of a physical nature. Arabic can't be translated directly into any language because its a poetic language. Sometimes one word has to be given a sentence of translated to get the true meaning.
So when Muslims think they can hit their wives or wahtever then it just goes to show how little they know about their religion and these are the jokers out there give us a bad name.

Learn about ur religion people. Don't just say it. Live it and then we can show people thas its about peace and haromny and acceptance and not the crap they see on TV.

[The Anti Desi]

Assalamu Alaikum

So you're a progressive Muslim?

Personally I don't find the philosophy very appealing. How do we, as individuals, know more than scholars who specialize in the field? It makes a joke of ijtihad and, instead of reforming themselves, progressive Muslims tend to tailor religion to their preferences. I don't mean to offend you; that's just my opinion.

Salam.
How do the scholars know more than us??? Is there something God left out of the Quran that we don't know??? We could use a few historians about the era, or some grammar/translators, but other than that, scholars don't hold any information more valuable than the Quran. And that being another point......scholars are never mentioned in the Quran. Being learned means you learn it yourself...not adhere to someone elses interpretation. Scholars are nothing more than attempt at being an intermediary. You can ask other people for help in interpretations, but that does not guarantee that THEY are right.....you must seek the knowledge yourself.

[jam_miro_quai]

This is being said to someone who does not believe in the hadith concept. Unless it was supported by the Quran, you don't convince me.

How can u not accept Hadith. There is no group or any muslim organisation that rejects Hadith as a source of knowledge.

Yeah there are unreliable Hadith out there which aren' neccessarily 100% authentic but there are lots that are and if u are to reject these then you accept the word of God (The Qu'ran) but you reject the teachings of the Prophts (pbuh). The Qu'ran itself tells us that God sent down prophets as a guidance. So if u dont believe in their teachings then ur rejecting a part of the Qu'ran.

???????????????????????????

[The Anti Desi]

How can u not accept Hadith. There is no group or any muslim organisation that rejects Hadith as a source of knowledge.

Yeah there are unreliable Hadith out there which aren' neccessarily 100% authentic but there are lots that are and if u are to reject these then you accept the word of God (The Qu'ran) but you reject the teachings of the Prophts (pbuh). The Qu'ran itself tells us that God sent down prophets as a guidance. So if u dont believe in their teachings then ur rejecting a part of the Qu'ran.

???????????????????????????
Where does the Quran EVER mention "Hadith of Muhammed"??? In fact, where does Quran EVER mention Sunnata'muhammed?????

The Quran never mentions following any other script than the Quran. The Quran is completely and perfectly detailed. And nothing has been omitted from the book. Where does it say I need anything else???

[jam_miro_quai]

How do the scholars know more than us??? Is there something God left out of the Quran that we don't know??? We could use a few historians about the era, or some grammar/translators, but other than that, scholars don't hold any information more valuable than the Quran. And that being another point......scholars are never mentioned in the Quran. Being learned means you learn it yourself...not adhere to someone elses interpretation. Scholars are nothing more than attempt at being an intermediary. You can ask other people for help in interpretations, but that does not guarantee that THEY are right.....you must seek the knowledge yourself.

How u gonna learn it urself before u study old Arabic? Again ur here to say u do this and u do that but you dont do nothing.

If u only follow the Qu'ran and not hadith then thats fine, ur choice, but the truth is u dont follow either. Just an excuse to argue without knowledge.

What to these "so-called learned" people do first? They learn the Arabic of the Qu'ran so they can understand it and Hadiths properly without misinterpretation. Thats basically ur arguement. They dont have anything that we dont have. Thats why any of us can become scholars. But what they do have is the tendency not to sit on their asses and learn about their religion.

Everyone has their role in society. Doctors heal. Workers work. Accountants do maths. teachers of subjects teach. AND teachers of religion teach religion.

Why not learn from people with more knowledge? Afterall why would u not learn from your chemistry teacher? What has he got which we dont? NOTHING BESDIES KNOWLEDGE. He knows more than us so we learn from him.

Of course though u arent gonna bother. You've put ur point across and uv sat on ur views for how many years? 5-6-7-8 maybe more? and why? cos uv thought this through so well?
Truth is u havent thought about anything but u post about these discussions why? Cos u have knowledge?

Thats why Islams a joke now-a-days.

[jam_miro_quai]

Where does the Quran EVER mention "Hadith of Muhammed"??? In fact, where does Quran EVER mention Sunnata'muhammed?????

The Quran never mentions following any other script than the Quran. The Quran is completely and perfectly detailed. And nothing has been omitted from the book. Where does it say I need anything else???

Does it not say that the Prophets are an example for us? Thats why they are sent? As warnings and as guiders?

If so then how come they were only for people of those days? Their actions were an example to be shown through all the years.

Yeah ur right it doesnt say u need anything else. But did it ever say the Qu'ran is ALL u need?

[The Anti Desi]

How u gonna learn it urself before u study old Arabic? Again ur here to say u do this and u do that but you dont do nothing.

If u only follow the Qu'ran and not hadith then thats fine, ur choice, but the truth is u dont follow either. Just an excuse to argue without knowledge.

What to these "so-called learned" people do first? They learn the Arabic of the Qu'ran so they can understand it and Hadiths properly without misinterpretation. Thats basically ur arguement. They dont have anything that we dont have. Thats why any of us can become scholars. But what they do have is the tendency not to sit on their asses and learn about their religion.

Everyone has their role in society. Doctors heal. Workers work. Accountants do maths. teachers of subjects teach. AND teachers of religion teach religion.

Why not learn from people with more knowledge? Afterall why would u not learn from your chemistry teacher? What has he got which we dont? NOTHING BESDIES KNOWLEDGE. He knows more than us so we learn from him.

Of course though u arent gonna bother. You've put ur point across and uv sat on ur views for how many years? 5-6-7-8 maybe more? and why? cos uv thought this through so well?
Truth is u havent thought about anything but u post about these discussions why? Cos u have knowledge?

Thats why Islams a joke now-a-days.
You can see I gave kudos to historians and translators. To say I against all scholars whatsoever would be ignorant. I accepted the translations, and some basic knowledge about the history of the era.......but if you really want to know Islam, you gotta read the Quran yourself. Thats the problem I have.......people just take the words of these "scholars" and never confirm it in the book. Anybody can give an interpretation, but the true believer must confirm it.

[jam_miro_quai]

You can see I gave kudos to historians and translators. To say I against all scholars whatsoever would be ignorant. I accepted the translations, and some basic knowledge about the history of the era.......but if you really want to know Islam, you gotta read the Quran yourself. Thats the problem I have.......people just take the words of these "scholars" and never confirm it in the book. Anybody can give an interpretation, but the true believer must confirm it.

u got a point about the scholars being unreliable but that doesnt mean its not the right way. Islam has always been taught. Even Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was taught by an angel until he knew everything 100%.

Remember to distnguish between a flaw in the system or a flaw in the people carrying out the system.
Also if you are learning from a scholar who's reliabl, you arent actually gettting his opinion. He doesn't have one. He learns the opinions of people who have learnt from opinions of others. This continues down until we react Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who didnt have an opinion but learnt the true meaning. Hence thats how we get the truth meaning today.

[The Anti Desi]

Does it not say that the Prophets are an example for us? Thats why they are sent? As warnings and as guiders?

If so then how come they were only for people of those days? Their actions were an example to be shown through all the years.

Yeah ur right it doesnt say u need anything else. But did it ever say the Qu'ran is ALL u need?
3:144 Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

No more than a messenger.....their duty was to deliver God's word....warn us of God's word.....and live out God's word. These messengers' examples were how they followed God's words. Thats the example.....how to follow the book of God....not to create an entire new life and deem it something else.

And as for any other script....you can follow any other script......but there is no other script for Islam other than the Quran. It is the final testament. Anything else you wish to follow you are free to do so....provided it does not trangress God's law. And there is no other book of God other than the Quran.

[The Anti Desi]

u got a point about the scholars being unreliable but that doesnt mean its not the right way. Islam has always been taught. Even Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was taught by an angel until he knew everything 100%.

Remember to distnguish between a flaw in the system or a flaw in the people carrying out the system.
Also if you are learning from a scholar who's reliabl, you arent actually gettting his opinion. He doesn't have one. He learns the opinions of people who have learnt from opinions of others. This continues down until we react Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who didnt have an opinion but learnt the true meaning. Hence thats how we get the truth meaning today.
55:1 ((Allah)) Most Gracious!
55:2 It is He Who has taught the Qur'an.

How do you know if the scholar is reliable and unopinionated???? But reading the Quran yourself. Confirming it yourself.

Now as for reacting Muhammed pbuh...what do you mean by that???

[jam_miro_quai]

55:1 ((Allah)) Most Gracious!
55:2 It is He Who has taught the Qur'an.

How do you know if the scholar is reliable and unopinionated???? But reading the Quran yourself. Confirming it yourself.

Now as for reacting Muhammed pbuh...what do you mean by that???

sorry i meant reach not react.

I'm a real dumb shit sometimes.

OK i have to stop posting now but this will continue tomorrow, lol

[Waliy Allah]

Where does it say I need anything else???
Salam,

So you're Quraniyyin as well? Can you explain to me in detail how to do salat, only using quotes from the Qur'an? How about Hajj?

3:144 Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

No more than a messenger.....their duty was to deliver God's word....warn us of God's word.....and live out God's word. These messengers' examples were how they followed God's words. Thats the example.....how to follow the book of God....not to create an entire new life and deem it something else.
How do you interpret the second part of that verse? "Those who (serve him)" are opposite to one who will "turn back on his heels."

[Vision350z]

3:144 Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

No more than a messenger.....their duty was to deliver God's word....warn us of God's word.....and live out God's word. These messengers' examples were how they followed God's words. Thats the example.....how to follow the book of God....not to create an entire new life and deem it something else.

And as for any other script....you can follow any other script......but there is no other script for Islam other than the Quran. It is the final testament. Anything else you wish to follow you are free to do so....provided it does not trangress God's law. And there is no other book of God other than the Quran.
salaam. well said and well pointed out. if only the other "divisions" of Islam truly believed that as well. honestly, from your sn, i wouldnt have ever guessed u knew anythin bout the Holy Qur'an, but then again, i'm also pretty anti-desi (pardesi i guess u can say) n pretty faithful in Allah (swt) n the last prophet, Muhammad (pbuh)

[MolviCorleone]

3:144 Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

No more than a messenger.....their duty was to deliver God's word....warn us of God's word.....and live out God's word. These messengers' examples were how they followed God's words. Thats the example.....how to follow the book of God....not to create an entire new life and deem it something else.

And as for any other script....you can follow any other script......but there is no other script for Islam other than the Quran. It is the final testament. Anything else you wish to follow you are free to do so....provided it does not trangress God's law. And there is no other book of God other than the Quran.


Dude doesnt it say in the quran

Say (O Muhammad!): ‘If you love God, follow me so that God loves you.’ (Al ‘Imran, 3.31)

Obey God and His Messenger and do not dispute with one another, lest you should be dissolved (dispersed) and your strength fade away; and be steadfast. (al-Anfal, 8.46)

He Who raised among the unlettered ones a Messenger from them, reciting to them His signs, purifies them and instructs them in the Book and the Wisdom. (al-Jumu‘a, 62.2)

the book means the Holy Quran and the Wisdom means Hadith.


now i know you dont beleive in hadith, lol but read this anyway

One day a woman came to ‘Abdullah ibn Mas‘ud and said: ‘I have heard that you call down God’s curse upon the women who have tattoos on their bodies, who pluck hairs on their faces, who force their teeth apart in order to look more beautiful, and who change the creation of God.’ Ibn Mas‘ud answered: ‘This is to be found in the Scripture of God.’ The woman objected: ‘I swear by God that I have read whatever is between the two covers of the Book but could not find anything in it related to this matter,’ Ibn Mas‘ud concluded: ‘Our Prophet called God’s curse upon the women who wear wigs, who join somebody’s hair to theirs, and who have tattoos on their bodies. And, have you not read in the Quran: Whatever the Messenger brings to you, adopt it, and whatever he forbids you, refrain from it (al-Hashr, 59.7)’

[MolviCorleone]

How do the scholars know more than us??? Is there something God left out of the Quran that we don't know??? We could use a few historians about the era, or some grammar/translators, but other than that, scholars don't hold any information more valuable than the Quran. And that being another point......scholars are never mentioned in the Quran. Being learned means you learn it yourself...not adhere to someone elses interpretation. Scholars are nothing more than attempt at being an intermediary. You can ask other people for help in interpretations, but that does not guarantee that THEY are right.....you must seek the knowledge yourself.

The Holy Quran contains everything, that is, Sharia, Tariqa (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:tariqa) and Haqiqa (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define%3Ahaqiqa&btnG=Search&meta=).

However knowledge of Sharia has been handed down from one generation of scholars (mujtahids, those qualified to interpret the Sharia, and ‘ulema’) to another: had this not been so, the ordinary people would have no way of knowing right from wrong. This being the case with matters related to the Sharia, it was even more vital that there be a similar chain (silsila) for the transmission of Gnostic knowledge (marifa), which cannot be extracted from the Holy Quran and Hadis without a teacher (murshid).
also like i posted above, whatever the Last Prophet taught us cannot be rejected simply becuase its not in the Quran, if you reject the Message of thee last Prophet then your more of less rejecting the Allahs message in the Quran



We have not sent a Messenger save to be obeyed by God’s leave. (al-Nisa’, 4.64)

O you who believe! Obey God and His Messenger, and do not turn away from him. (al-Anfal, 8.20)

[Waliy Allah]

Salam MolviCorleone,

That last post of yours certainly shows some Sufi inclinations, or it was copied from a Sufi source. :sarb: The message is well intentioned but most Muslims don't care for Tariqas or Haqiqas, nor for any supposed gnostic knowledge, marifa. :)

The important thing is that scholars dedicate themselves to the study of Islam, and what is apparent to a mujtahid in a verse from the Qur'an may not be readily apparent to others.

Are you Sufi btw? I don't think I know any desi Sufis.

[MolviCorleone]

Salam MolviCorleone,

That last post of yours certainly shows some Sufi inclinations, or it was copied from a Sufi source. :sarb: The message is well intentioned but most Muslims don't care for Tariqas or Haqiqas, nor for any supposed gnostic knowledge, marifa. :)

The important thing is that scholars dedicate themselves to the study of Islam, and what is apparent to a mujtahid in a verse from the Qur'an may not be readily apparent to others.

Are you Sufi btw?

whatever.

[The Anti Desi]

Salam,

So you're Quraniyyin as well? Can you explain to me in detail how to do salat, only using quotes from the Qur'an? How about Hajj?


How do you interpret the second part of that verse? "Those who (serve him)" are opposite to one who will "turn back on his heels."

Peace be upon you.

Yes I am Quran only.

Now when we talk about salat prayer……can you show to me where this detailed form of prayer comes from, and where in these hadith books????

And as for hajj

2:189 They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back: It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors: And fear Allah. That ye may prosper.

2:196 And complete the Hajj or 'umra in the service of Allah. But if ye are prevented (From completing it), send an offering for sacrifice, such as ye may find, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the place of sacrifice. And if any of you is ill, or has an ailment in his scalp, (Necessitating shaving), (He should) in compensation either fast, or feed the poor, or offer sacrifice; and when ye are in peaceful conditions (again), if any one wishes to continue the 'umra on to the hajj, He must make an offering, such as he can afford, but if he cannot afford it, He should fast three days during the hajj and seven days on his return, Making ten days in all. This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts of) the Sacred Mosque. And fear Allah, and know that Allah Is strict in punishment.

2:197 For Hajj are the months well known. If any one undertakes that duty therein, Let there be no obscenity, nor wickedness, nor wrangling in the Hajj. And whatever good ye do, (be sure) Allah knoweth it. And take a provision (With you) for the journey, but the best of provisions is right conduct. So fear Me, o ye that are wise.

Duties

2:198 It is no crime in you if ye seek of the bounty of your Lord (during pilgrimage). Then when ye pour down from (Mount) Arafat, celebrate the praises of Allah at the Sacred Monument, and celebrate His praises as He has directed you, even though, before this, ye went astray.

2:199 Then pass on at a quick pace from the place whence it is usual for the multitude so to do, and ask for Allah's forgiveness. For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

2:158 Lo! (the mountains) Al-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the indications of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who is on pilgrimage to the House (of God) or visiteth it, to go around them (as the pagan custom is). And he who doeth good of his own accord (for him), Lo! Allah is Responsive, Aware.

22:26 Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).

22:27 "And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways;

22:28 "That they may witness the benefits (provided) for them, and celebrate the name of Allah, through the Days appointed, over the cattle which He has provided for them (for sacrifice): then eat ye thereof and feed the distressed ones in want.

22:29 "Then let them complete the rites prescribed for them, perform their vows, and (again) circumambulate the Ancient House."

22:30 Such (is the Pilgrimage): whoever honours the sacred rites of Allah, for him it is good in the Sight of his Lord. Lawful to you (for food in Pilgrimage) are cattle, except those mentioned to you (as exception): but shun the abomination of idols, and shun the word that is false,-


22:34 To every people did We appoint rites (of sacrifice), that they might celebrate the name of Allah over the sustenance He gave them from animals (fit for food). But your Allah is One Allah. submit then your wills to Him (in Islam): and give thou the good news to those who humble themselves,-

22:36 The sacrificial camels we have made for you as among the symbols from Allah. in them is (much) good for you: then pronounce the name of Allah over them as they line up (for sacrifice): when they are down on their sides (after slaughter), eat ye thereof, and feed such as (beg not but) live in contentment, and such as beg with due humility: thus have We made animals subject to you, that ye may be grateful.

22:37 It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah. it is your piety that reaches Him: He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right.

5:97 Allah made the Ka'ba, the Sacred House, an asylum of security for men, as also the Sacred Months, the animals for offerings, and the garlands that mark them: That ye may know that Allah hath knowledge of what is in the heavens and on earth and that Allah is well acquainted with all things.

Misc

5:1 O ye who believe! fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals, with the exceptions named: But animals of the chase are forbidden while ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb: for Allah doth command according to His will and plan.

5:95 O ye who believe! Kill not game while in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. If any of you doth so intentionally, the compensation is an offering, brought to the Ka'ba, of a domestic animal equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent; or its equivalent in fasts: that he may taste of the penalty of his deed. Allah forgives what is past: for repetition Allah will exact from him the penalty. For Allah is Exalted, and Lord of Retribution.

[The Anti Desi]

Dude doesnt it say in the quran

Say (O Muhammad!): ‘If you love God, follow me so that God loves you.’ (Al ‘Imran, 3.31)

Obey God and His Messenger and do not dispute with one another, lest you should be dissolved (dispersed) and your strength fade away; and be steadfast. (al-Anfal, 8.46)

He Who raised among the unlettered ones a Messenger from them, reciting to them His signs, purifies them and instructs them in the Book and the Wisdom. (al-Jumu‘a, 62.2)

the book means the Holy Quran and the Wisdom means Hadith.


now i know you dont beleive in hadith, lol but read this anyway

It says in the Quran to obey Allah and the messenger...well over 20 sometimes. Never did it say one time "Obey Muhammed". PBUH. Remember, God does not distinguish between his messengers....so to say that messenger refers only Muhammed pbuh would defy God's command. Never did God nor Muhammed pbuh mention any Sunnah.

2:285 The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

Now every ignorant Sunni says Wisdom is the Hadith.......where does the Quran strictly mention "hadith" concept????

Does wisdom strictly mean hadith and sunnah of Muhammed pbuh????? Answer that question to me.

[The Anti Desi]

The Holy Quran contains everything, that is, Sharia, Tariqa (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&defl=en&q=define:tariqa) and Haqiqa (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=define%3Ahaqiqa&btnG=Search&meta=).

However knowledge of Sharia has been handed down from one generation of scholars (mujtahids, those qualified to interpret the Sharia, and ‘ulema’) to another: had this not been so, the ordinary people would have no way of knowing right from wrong. This being the case with matters related to the Sharia, it was even more vital that there be a similar chain (silsila) for the transmission of Gnostic knowledge (marifa), which cannot be extracted from the Holy Quran and Hadis without a teacher (murshid).
also like i posted above, whatever the Last Prophet taught us cannot be rejected simply becuase its not in the Quran, if you reject the Message of thee last Prophet then your more of less rejecting the Allahs message in the Quran

Find me those Quranic references.

[MolviCorleone]

It says in the Quran to obey Allah and the messenger...well over 20 sometimes. Never did it say one time "Obey Muhammed". PBUH. Remember, God does not distinguish between his messengers....so to say that messenger refers only Muhammed pbuh would defy God's command. Never did God nor Muhammed pbuh mention any Sunnah.

2:285 The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His messengers. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His messengers." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

Now every ignorant Sunni says Wisdom is the Hadith.......where does the Quran strictly mention "hadith" concept????

Does wisdom strictly mean hadith and sunnah of Muhammed pbuh????? Answer that question to me.

no no, YOU tell me since your the expert, when it says Wisdom what is it referring to? tell me

also are you saying that if the Prophet Mohammed said something, its not wisdom

your ignoring some of the quotes which are FROM the quran. They clearly say what the prophet teaches us we must obey.





Does wisdom strictly mean hadith and sunnah of Muhammed pbuh?????
what is hadith, you tell me, its a collection of the sayings and teachings of the prophet Mohammed. Obviously some cannot be taken as being authentic BUT they are still a part of islam becuase of the verse.

Whatever the Messenger brings to you, adopt it, and whatever he forbids you, refrain from it (al-Hashr, 59.7)


2nd time posting this, youve ignored it before too whixch shows how lacking in truth you are.

if it wasnt for hadith how could a muslim connect with what the Prophet Mohammed taught?

how?

unless you think he taught nothing outside of the Quran. And who would know better, you or the closest to him.

i know what you are thinkin, your thinking he was ONLY a mesanger of the quran, he was born, he delivered the quran and then he left. Period. Your thinking there is nothing more to the prophet than to give us the Quran(that he didnt have any other message, did nothing else in his life). In that case what was his life all about? what did he do apart from deliver the quran??



BUT

if thats the case what is this reffering to?

doesnt it say in the Quran

"Say (O Muhammad): ‘if you (truly) love Allah, follow me! Allah will then love you and forgive your sins.’ And Allah is All Forgiving, All Merciful."} (Sura Al Imraan ayah #31


"Whatever of good reaches you, is from Allah, but whatever evil befalls you, is from yourself. And We have sent you (Muhammad) as a Messenger to humanity, and Allah is sufficient as a witness. He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allaah, but he who turns away, then We have not sent you as a watcher over them. (Surah An-Nisa Ayat # 79-80)

[MolviCorleone]

Find me those Quranic references.


i ccant just FND those verses myself, im no scholar and neither are you, haha, well you claim to be one, are you authorised?

if your not, then your not a mujtahids(those qualified to interpret the Sharia)

so please, dont call yourself a scholar, not until you posses a scholarship

[redlightnin]

Peace be upon you.

Yes I am Quran only.

Now when we talk about salat prayer……can you show to me where this detailed form of prayer comes from, and where in these hadith books????

And as for hajj

2:189 They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say: They are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for Pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back: It is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors: And fear Allah. That ye may prosper.

2:196 And complete the Hajj or 'umra in the service of Allah. But if ye are prevented (From completing it), send an offering for sacrifice, such as ye may find, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the place of sacrifice. And if any of you is ill, or has an ailment in his scalp, (Necessitating shaving), (He should) in compensation either fast, or feed the poor, or offer sacrifice; and when ye are in peaceful conditions (again), if any one wishes to continue the 'umra on to the hajj, He must make an offering, such as he can afford, but if he cannot afford it, He should fast three days during the hajj and seven days on his return, Making ten days in all. This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts of) the Sacred Mosque. And fear Allah, and know that Allah Is strict in punishment.

2:197 For Hajj are the months well known. If any one undertakes that duty therein, Let there be no obscenity, nor wickedness, nor wrangling in the Hajj. And whatever good ye do, (be sure) Allah knoweth it. And take a provision (With you) for the journey, but the best of provisions is right conduct. So fear Me, o ye that are wise.

Duties

2:198 It is no crime in you if ye seek of the bounty of your Lord (during pilgrimage). Then when ye pour down from (Mount) Arafat, celebrate the praises of Allah at the Sacred Monument, and celebrate His praises as He has directed you, even though, before this, ye went astray.

2:199 Then pass on at a quick pace from the place whence it is usual for the multitude so to do, and ask for Allah's forgiveness. For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

2:158 Lo! (the mountains) Al-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the indications of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who is on pilgrimage to the House (of God) or visiteth it, to go around them (as the pagan custom is). And he who doeth good of his own accord (for him), Lo! Allah is Responsive, Aware.

22:26 Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).

22:27 "And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways;

22:28 "That they may witness the benefits (provided) for them, and celebrate the name of Allah, through the Days appointed, over the cattle which He has provided for them (for sacrifice): then eat ye thereof and feed the distressed ones in want.

22:29 "Then let them complete the rites prescribed for them, perform their vows, and (again) circumambulate the Ancient House."

22:30 Such (is the Pilgrimage): whoever honours the sacred rites of Allah, for him it is good in the Sight of his Lord. Lawful to you (for food in Pilgrimage) are cattle, except those mentioned to you (as exception): but shun the abomination of idols, and shun the word that is false,-


22:34 To every people did We appoint rites (of sacrifice), that they might celebrate the name of Allah over the sustenance He gave them from animals (fit for food). But your Allah is One Allah. submit then your wills to Him (in Islam): and give thou the good news to those who humble themselves,-

22:36 The sacrificial camels we have made for you as among the symbols from Allah. in them is (much) good for you: then pronounce the name of Allah over them as they line up (for sacrifice): when they are down on their sides (after slaughter), eat ye thereof, and feed such as (beg not but) live in contentment, and such as beg with due humility: thus have We made animals subject to you, that ye may be grateful.

22:37 It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah. it is your piety that reaches Him: He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right.

5:97 Allah made the Ka'ba, the Sacred House, an asylum of security for men, as also the Sacred Months, the animals for offerings, and the garlands that mark them: That ye may know that Allah hath knowledge of what is in the heavens and on earth and that Allah is well acquainted with all things.

Misc

5:1 O ye who believe! fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals, with the exceptions named: But animals of the chase are forbidden while ye are in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb: for Allah doth command according to His will and plan.

5:95 O ye who believe! Kill not game while in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. If any of you doth so intentionally, the compensation is an offering, brought to the Ka'ba, of a domestic animal equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent; or its equivalent in fasts: that he may taste of the penalty of his deed. Allah forgives what is past: for repetition Allah will exact from him the penalty. For Allah is Exalted, and Lord of Retribution.
::Applauds:: Salam,
dude, you're tha man. "Yes I am Quran only." That's the way it's supposed to be. The hadiths' are interpretations that were handed down from many many generations ago. They were not meant to be sources of guidance. The Holy Quran specifically says that all of your questions or doubts that you may have, shall be found in the Quran. It's nice to see that some people on here are really religious. I, however, am not really educated to the extent where I can quote Quranic verses off the top of my head, but I'm reading, and learning whenever I get a chance. I gotta give you props though, w/e you posted are from the Quran, not the Hadiths.
btw... what's your name br0? I'm Wazeer. Pleased to meet u. Take care.

[The Anti Desi]

no no, YOU tell me since your the expert, when it says Wisdom what is it referring to? tell me

also are you saying that if the Prophet Mohammed said something, its not wisdom

your ignoring some of the quotes which are FROM the quran. They clearly say what the prophet teaches us we must obey.
Its YOUR claim that wisdom refers to hadith, so YOU tell me how you justify it.

If you are saying that God’s wisdom is Muhammed’s sunnah, YOU show me how you came to that conclusion.

what is hadith, you tell me, its a collection of the sayings and teachings of the prophet Mohammed. Obviously some cannot be taken as being authentic BUT they are still a part of islam becuase of the verse.

Whatever the Messenger brings to you, adopt it, and whatever he forbids you, refrain from it (al-Hashr, 59.7)


2nd time posting this, youve ignored it before too whixch shows how lacking in truth you are.

if it wasnt for hadith how could a muslim connect with what the Prophet Mohammed taught?

how?

unless you think he taught nothing outside of the Quran. And who would know better, you or the closest to him.

i know what you are thinkin, your thinking he was ONLY a mesanger of the quran, he was born, he delivered the quran and then he left. Period. Your thinking there is nothing more to the prophet than to give us the Quran(that he didnt have any other message, did nothing else in his life). In that case what was his life all about? what did he do apart from deliver the quran??



BUT

if thats the case what is this reffering to?

doesnt it say in the Quran

"Say (O Muhammad): ‘if you (truly) love Allah, follow me! Allah will then love you and forgive your sins.’ And Allah is All Forgiving, All Merciful."} (Sura Al Imraan ayah #31


"Whatever of good reaches you, is from Allah, but whatever evil befalls you, is from yourself. And We have sent you (Muhammad) as a Messenger to humanity, and Allah is sufficient as a witness. He who obeys the Messenger, has indeed obeyed Allaah, but he who turns away, then We have not sent you as a watcher over them. (Surah An-Nisa Ayat # 79-80)
I had already said through hundreds of posts.

The messenger has no duty BUT to deliver the message, and he is NO MORE than a messenger.

24:54 Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

5:99 The Messenger's duty is but to proclaim (the message). But Allah knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.

64:12 So obey Allah, and obey His Messenger. but if ye turn back, the duty of Our Messenger is but to proclaim (the Message) clearly and openly.

5:92 Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner.

If you are saying that obeying the messenger is going beyond or in addition to the Quran, then you applying addition attributes to the messenger and you are going against God’s commands. Following and obeying him means to accepts God’s words…the Quran. The Quran is the God’s words AND the utterance of Muhammed pbuh….that is what we obey, that is what we accept, that is what we follow. What other teachings are they asking for???? When did the Quran mention anything about Muhammed pbuh teaching anything else???? We follow what was revealed through him through the divine inspiration. Anything Muhammed pbuh says out of the Quran is not a divine inspiration. If you are saying that there is additional information required, and obeying the messenger is different from obeying the Quran, you claim the Quran is incomplete.


And what is hadith???? Show me in the Quran where it mentions hadith. Show me in the Quran where it mentions Sunnah. Not some metaphorical verse……the words verbatim. You must find me hadith and sunnah mentioned in the Quran BY NAME….if not, then it has nothing to do with the Quran and nothing to do with Islam.

[The Anti Desi]

i ccant just FND those verses myself, im no scholar and neither are you, haha, well you claim to be one, are you authorised?

if your not, then your not a mujtahids(those qualified to interpret the Sharia)

so please, dont call yourself a scholar, not until you posses a scholarship
And where does the Quran ever talk about scholarship, mujtahids, Sharia, authorized??? Where did you obtain that concept???? If someone else gave it to you, then they should have at least given you the proofs. If you don't have any proofs, then you are following someone blindly rather than following what God said in the Book. If you truly believe it, you would have confirmed it yourself. Don't preach me something you have no knowledge in.

And if you know so much about this scholarship, then tell me what it is. Where does the Quran say only authorized people can check the Quran.....unless you believe in intermediaries.....in that case, you are following the same mistakes Christians made.

9:31 They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

[mullah omar]

Its YOUR claim that wisdom refers to hadith, so YOU tell me how you justify it.

If you are saying that God’s wisdom is Muhammed’s sunnah, YOU show me how you came to that conclusion.


The Qur'ân says
"Whoever obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah".

Again, Allah says: "When a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger, it does not behoove a believer, man or woman, to have choice in their matter. One who disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path." Qur'ân (33:36)

Furthermore, Allah says: "What the Messenger teaches you, take it; and what he forbids you, avoid doing it." Qur'ân (59:7)

[The Anti Desi]

The Qur'ân says
"Whoever obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah".

Again, Allah says: "When a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger, it does not behoove a believer, man or woman, to have choice in their matter. One who disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path." Qur'ân (33:36)

Furthermore, Allah says: "What the Messenger teaches you, take it; and what he forbids you, avoid doing it." Qur'ân (59:7)
How convenient that you just leave out the rest of the post.

[londonnaz]

This is being said to someone who does not believe in the hadith concept. Unless it was supported by the Quran, you don't convince me.


Ur just a prick mate who thinks he can prove his point right but arguing that the only true way to follow islam is by following the quran. Just ur mere thought at this shows ur degenerate thinking.

The quran was revealed over a period 23 years ayat by ayat thru angel Jibra'eel (as). Fact it was revealed upon our prophet muhammed (pbuh) and he practiced the religion as it has been revealed to him over time.

To reject the Hadeeth is to reject the teachings of out prophet and the caliphates who carried the message and teachings of islam forward.

to interpret the quran in its pure form u need have studied arabic and islamic studies at a very very high level wich can take a minimum of 10- 15 years
and the truth is the true interpretation of the quran could fil libraries many times over all around the world, and this is where we get our hadeeth and the teachings and the interpretation from the followers upon who islam was first revealed to, this just goes to show how much of amoron u are when u question the concetp of sunnah.
Do u class urself a better believer and practicer and more knowledgeful than our prophet himself upon whom the religion was revealed to word for word wich he then practiced and taught throughout his life ?? please tell me who u think could have practiced the religion better than our prophet himself ??? as following the ways and actions and the teachings of our prophet is known as sunnah, yes there maybe no mention of sunnah itself but the act of following the actions of our prophet is classed as sunnah and as mentioned in the quran he was sent as our guider to carry the message as previous prophets had done so too,

U need to go do and some research because u sound like just an argumentative prick who thinks he can know it all about islam because u think or u claim u can interpret it for urself just by redaing the quran and thats all u need to follow because u think u can teach urself if thats the case, im sure u could be a rocket scientest or anything else for that matter by just picking up books and teaching urself as u must have some serious intelligence powers. im sure u learned to read an write all by urself this too as u must have been way too clever for any teacher to be able to teach u :sarb: , i mean as u said in ur words ,,, who they hell are they ? they are just an intermediary

i seriously dont wanna waste any more time on u as ur mere way of thinking clearly shows its pointless talking to u, good luck :wavey:

[londonnaz]

Dude doesnt it say in the quran

Say (O Muhammad!): ‘If you love God, follow me so that God loves you.’ (Al ‘Imran, 3.31)

Obey God and His Messenger and do not dispute with one another, lest you should be dissolved (dispersed) and your strength fade away; and be steadfast. (al-Anfal, 8.46)

He Who raised among the unlettered ones a Messenger from them, reciting to them His signs, purifies them and instructs them in the Book and the Wisdom. (al-Jumu‘a, 62.2)

the book means the Holy Quran and the Wisdom means Hadith.


now i know you dont beleive in hadith, lol but read this anyway

One day a woman came to ‘Abdullah ibn Mas‘ud and said: ‘I have heard that you call down God’s curse upon the women who have tattoos on their bodies, who pluck hairs on their faces, who force their teeth apart in order to look more beautiful, and who change the creation of God.’ Ibn Mas‘ud answered: ‘This is to be found in the Scripture of God.’ The woman objected: ‘I swear by God that I have read whatever is between the two covers of the Book but could not find anything in it related to this matter,’ Ibn Mas‘ud concluded: ‘Our Prophet called God’s curse upon the women who wear wigs, who join somebody’s hair to theirs, and who have tattoos on their bodies. And, have you not read in the Quran: Whatever the Messenger brings to you, adopt it, and whatever he forbids you, refrain from it (al-Hashr, 59.7)’

THANK U VERY VERY MUCH I REST MY CASE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Anti Desi]

Ur just a prick mate who thinks he can prove his point right but arguing that the only true way to follow islam is by following the quran. Just ur mere thought at this shows ur degenerate thinking.

The quran was revealed over a period 23 years ayat by ayat thru angel Jibra'eel (as). Fact it was revealed upon our prophet muhammed (pbuh) and he practiced the religion as it has been revealed to him over time.

To reject the Hadeeth is to reject the teachings of out prophet and the caliphates who carried the message and teachings of islam forward.

to interpret the quran in its pure form u need have studied arabic and islamic studies at a very very high level wich can take a minimum of 10- 15 years
and the truth is the true interpretation of the quran could fil libraries many times over all around the world, and this is where we get our hadeeth and the teachings and the interpretation from the followers upon who islam was first revealed to, this just goes to show how much of amoron u are when u question the concetp of sunnah.
Do u class urself a better believer and practicer and more knowledgeful than our prophet himself upon whom the religion was revealed to word for word wich he then practiced and taught throughout his life ?? please tell me who u think could have practiced the religion better than our prophet himself ??? as following the ways and actions and the teachings of our prophet is known as sunnah, yes there maybe no mention of sunnah itself but the act of following the actions of our prophet is classed as sunnah and as mentioned in the quran he was sent as our guider to carry the message as previous prophets had done so too,

U need to go do and some research because u sound like just an argumentative prick who thinks he can know it all about islam because u think or u claim u can interpret it for urself just by redaing the quran and thats all u need to follow because u think u can teach urself if thats the case, im sure u could be a rocket scientest or anything else for that matter by just picking up books and teaching urself as u must have some serious intelligence powers. im sure u learned to read an write all by urself this too as u must have been way too clever for any teacher to be able to teach u :sarb: , i mean as u said in ur words ,,, who they hell are they ? they are just an intermediary

i seriously dont wanna waste any more time on u as ur mere way of thinking clearly shows its pointless talking to u, good luck :wavey:
Quranic quotes please. And don't give me ones that I have already refuted in my previous posts.

[MolviCorleone]

And where does the Quran ever talk about scholarship, mujtahids, Sharia, authorized??? Where did you obtain that concept???? If someone else gave it to you, then they should have at least given you the proofs. If you don't have any proofs, then you are following someone blindly rather than following what God said in the Book. If you truly believe it, you would have confirmed it yourself. Don't preach me something you have no knowledge in.

And if you know so much about this scholarship, then tell me what it is. Where does the Quran say only authorized people can check the Quran.....unless you believe in intermediaries.....in that case, you are following the same mistakes Christians made.

9:31 They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).


ive never heard of a self appointed scholar in any feild in any aspect of life nevermind islam.

all im saying is plase dont call yourself a scholar, ive seen you call yourself a scholar on here and then question what being a scholar is all about. YOUR not one, period.

[londonnaz]

Quranic quotes please. And don't give me ones that I have already refuted in my previous posts.


oh please forgive me as i forgot u are the master of interpreting the quranic quotes goodbye :wavey:

[MolviCorleone]

Quranic quotes please. And don't give me ones that I have already refuted in my previous posts.

you mean ones you ignored? right?

[The Anti Desi]

ive never heard of a self appointed scholar in any feild in any aspect of life nevermind islam.

all im saying is plase dont call yourself a scholar, ive seen you call yourself a scholar on here and then question what being a scholar is all about. YOUR not one, period.
That what your scholars are....self appointed. So me being self-appointed ain't breakin your rules.

Where is your "scholar" contention???? You have yet to show me where the Quran mentions any scholar concept.

I research this with intention, and I am set to prove my religion is the right religion it is supposed to be. I am not a scholar in your eyes because of your manmade concept.......but you never used God's word to prove any scholarship.

[The Anti Desi]

you mean ones you ignored? right?
You ignored quotes from the Quran???? Now I know your true intention.

[londonnaz]

you mean ones you ignored? right?
yeah did u notice that he only referred to the ones that benefited his arguments, but the ones in clear black and white u posted
i jus wonder what his so called interpretations of the following are :

Whatever the Messenger brings to you, adopt it, and whatever he forbids you, refrain from it (al-Hashr, 59.7)

We have not sent a Messenger save to be obeyed by God’s leave. (al-Nisa’, 4.64)

O you who believe! Obey God and His Messenger, and do not turn away from him. (al-Anfal, 8.20)

going by this and just the quran alone, are we not to obey the sayings and teachings of our prophet ??????????? :rolleyes: as it clearly states here

[londonnaz]

You ignored quotes from the Quran???? Now I know your true intention.


LOL @ ur stupidity,,,,,, he was talking about u, u stupid pratt, he was talking about the quotes wich u clearly avioded referring to and the ones u chose to ignore

[The Anti Desi]

yeah did u notice that he only referred to the ones that benefited his arguments, but the ones in clear black and white u posted
i jus wonder what his so called interpretations of the following are :

Whatever the Messenger brings to you, adopt it, and whatever he forbids you, refrain from it (al-Hashr, 59.7)

We have not sent a Messenger save to be obeyed by God’s leave. (al-Nisa’, 4.64)

O you who believe! Obey God and His Messenger, and do not turn away from him. (al-Anfal, 8.20)

going by this and just the quran alone, are we not to obey the sayings and teachings of our prophet ??????????? :rolleyes: as it clearly states here
And my response

I had already said through hundreds of posts.

The messenger has no duty BUT to deliver the message, and he is NO MORE than a messenger.

24:54 Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

5:99 The Messenger's duty is but to proclaim (the message). But Allah knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.

64:12 So obey Allah, and obey His Messenger. but if ye turn back, the duty of Our Messenger is but to proclaim (the Message) clearly and openly.

5:92 Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner.


If you are saying that obeying the messenger is going beyond or in addition to the Quran, then you applying addition attributes to the messenger and you are going against God’s commands. Following and obeying him means to accepts God’s words…the Quran. The Quran is the God’s words AND the utterance of Muhammed pbuh….that is what we obey, that is what we accept, that is what we follow. What other teachings are they asking for???? When did the Quran mention anything about Muhammed pbuh teaching anything else???? We follow what was revealed through him through the divine inspiration. Anything Muhammed pbuh says out of the Quran is not a divine inspiration. If you are saying that there is additional information required, and obeying the messenger is different from obeying the Quran, you claim the Quran is incomplete.


And what is hadith???? Show me in the Quran where it mentions hadith. Show me in the Quran where it mentions Sunnah. Not some metaphorical verse……the words verbatim. You must find me hadith and sunnah mentioned in the Quran BY NAME….if not, then it has nothing to do with the Quran and nothing to do with Islam.

[The Anti Desi]

LOL @ ur stupidity,,,,,, he was talking about u, u stupid pratt, he was talking about the quotes wich u clearly avioded referring to and the ones u chose to ignore
I refuted everything he said. He chose to ignore my response.

[MolviCorleone]

Its YOUR claim that wisdom refers to hadith, so YOU tell me how you justify it.

If you are saying that God’s wisdom is Muhammed’s sunnah, YOU show me how you came to that conclusion.


I had already said through hundreds of posts.

The messenger has no duty BUT to deliver the message, and he is NO MORE than a messenger.

24:54 Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

5:99 The Messenger's duty is but to proclaim (the message). But Allah knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.

64:12 So obey Allah, and obey His Messenger. but if ye turn back, the duty of Our Messenger is but to proclaim (the Message) clearly and openly.

5:92 Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Messenger's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner.

If you are saying that obeying the messenger is going beyond or in addition to the Quran, then you applying addition attributes to the messenger and you are going against God’s commands. Following and obeying him means to accepts God’s words…the Quran. The Quran is the God’s words AND the utterance of Muhammed pbuh….that is what we obey, that is what we accept, that is what we follow. What other teachings are they asking for???? When did the Quran mention anything about Muhammed pbuh teaching anything else???? We follow what was revealed through him through the divine inspiration. Anything Muhammed pbuh says out of the Quran is not a divine inspiration. If you are saying that there is additional information required, and obeying the messenger is different from obeying the Quran, you claim the Quran is incomplete.


And what is hadith???? Show me in the Quran where it mentions hadith. Show me in the Quran where it mentions Sunnah. Not some metaphorical verse……the words verbatim. You must find me hadith and sunnah mentioned in the Quran BY NAME….if not, then it has nothing to do with the Quran and nothing to do with Islam.


lol @ metaphorical verse

look thats what i mean by you not being a learned man, your not a scholar so you cant simply assume a meaning from a verse when there are more learned men then you who beleibe in hadith having read the same quran. Why do you think that is?

this i the perfect example of you, i remember when you wrote "where in the quran does it mention SHARIAH" doing a quick quran search for the word shariah isnt good enough, SHARIAH means ISLAMIC LAW and in the quran there is such a thing as islamic law.



Anything Muhammed pbuh says out of the Quran is not a divine inspiration. If you are saying that there is additional information required, and obeying the messenger is different from obeying the Quran, you claim the Quran is incomplete.

obeying the messanger is different to obeying the quran, tell me where i said that, also tell me where i claimed the quran is incomplete,
The Prophet Mohammed shared with us his knowledge and wisdom. did he not, you are really stupid to search the whole quran looknig for the word HADITH. Hadith are a collection of the teachings and sayings of the prophet. Since he was wise he knew better than us. Are you denying that he was wise?

He Who raised among the unlettered ones a Messenger from them, reciting to them His signs, purifies them and instructs them in the Book and the Wisdom. (al-Jumu‘a, 62.2)

so what does that bit mean, where it says wisdom, whats that all about. pleas do tell me.


Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).


how does MESSAGE=Quran only
how does what i beleive in contradict that verse.

[The Anti Desi]

lol @ metaphorical verse

look thats what i mean by you not being a learned man, your not a scholar so you cant simply assume a meaning from a verse when there are more learned men then you who beleibe in hadith having read the same quran. Why do you think that is?

this i the perfect example of you, i remember when you wrote "where in the quran does it mention SHARIAH" doing a quick quran search for the word shariah isnt good enough, SHARIAH means ISLAMIC LAW and in the quran there is such a thing as islamic law.
If there is such a concept of hadith and sunna.....would not God tell us???? Are you saying to just make up this concept to complete a religion. You think God is playing a trick on us not mentioning the hadith and sunnah????

And where does the Quran mention such scholar issues regarding Shariah???
You claimed something about shariah being the way it is...prove that to me.

obeying the messanger is different to obeying the quran, tell me where i said that, also tell me where i claimed the quran is incomplete,
The Prophet Mohammed shared with us his knowledge and wisdom. did he not, you are really stupid to search the whole quran looknig for the word HADITH. Hadith are a collection of the teachings and sayings of the prophet. Since he was wise he knew better than us. Are you denying that he was wise?
You claim is that obeying the messenger includes something other than the Quran. Like I said before, it never said obey Muhammed pbuh, only obey the messenger.....that means it we accept the message, not the teachings of the person. The message is the divine inspiration, not his own teachings. The messenger delivers the message, nothing on his own accord.

69:40 That this is verily the word of an honoured Messenger;
69:41 It is not the word of a poet: little it is ye believe!
69:42 Nor is it the word of a soothsayer: little admonition it is ye receive.
69:43 (This is) a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds.
69:44 And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name,
69:45 We should certainly seize him by his right hand,
69:46 And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart:


He Who raised among the unlettered ones a Messenger from them, reciting to them His signs, purifies them and instructs them in the Book and the Wisdom. (al-Jumu‘a, 62.2)

so what does that bit mean, where it says wisdom, whats that all about. pleas do tell me.
The book and wisdom were given by God to Muhammed pbuh, it was not Muhammed's own created wisdom. The wisdom is with the book....IN the book. Allah gave Muhammed the book and the wisdom...just like his other messengers.

5:110 Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

3:81 Behold! Allah took the covenant of the prophets, saying: "I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you a messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe in him and render him help." Allah said: "Do ye agree, and take this my Covenant as binding on you?" They said: "We agree." He said: "Then bear witness, and I am with you among the witnesses."

3:42 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah hath chosen thee and purified thee- chosen thee above the women of all nations.
3:43 "O Mary! worship Thy Lord devoutly: Prostrate thyself, and bow down (in prayer) with those who bow down."
3:44 This is part of the tidings of the things unseen, which We reveal unto thee (O Messenger.) by inspiration: Thou wast not with them when they cast lots with arrows, as to which of them should be charged with the care of Mary: Nor wast thou with them when they disputed (the point).
3:45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.
3:46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."
3:47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!
3:48 "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,
3:49 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;
3:50 "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.


2:251 By Allah's will they routed them; and David slew Goliath; and Allah gave him power and wisdom and taught him whatever (else) He willed. And did not Allah Check one set of people by means of another, the earth would indeed be full of mischief: But Allah is full of bounty to all the worlds.

4:54 Or do they envy mankind for what Allah hath given them of his bounty? but We had already given the people of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and conferred upon them a great kingdom.

31:12 we bestowed (in the past) Wisdom on Luqman: "Show (thy) gratitude to Allah." Any who is (so) grateful does so to the profit of his own soul: but if any is ungrateful, verily Allah is free of all wants, Worthy of all praise.

Since wisdom was given by GOD to other messengers, it cannot be the hadith and sunnah of Muhammed pbuh, nor sunnah of any other messengers pbut.

how does MESSAGE=Quran only
how does what i beleive in contradict that verse.
Like I said....the divine inspiration is the message. Anything else that Muhammed pbuh says out of the Quran is not the divine inspiration, and therefore, not in the message. If you are sayin there is more to the divine inspiration, then it would be written in the Quran. If it is not, its not part of the message. If you are looking for Islamic law out of the Quran, there is not any...

6:38 There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.

[MolviCorleone]

If there is such a concept of hadith and sunna.....would not God tell us???? Are you saying to just make up this concept to complete a religion. You think God is playing a trick on us not mentioning the hadith and sunnah????
no Allah isnt playing a trick, since HE clearly said

Whatever the Messenger brings to you, adopt it, and whatever he forbids you, refrain from it (al-Hashr, 59.7)

thats enough for me to beleive in what the prophet brought to us.

actually see i beleive in what the last Prophet sallalhu alaihe wasallam brought to us, i try to adopt it but im a weak muslim.
you on the otherhand, do you adopt what the Prophet Mohammad sallalhu alaihe wasallam brought forward?

do you.

it says ADOPT IT if it was asking us to follow the Quran alone then we would be instructed to only follow the Quran and there would be no mention of the messenger.

you though, im not one to call you a non muslim or anything, but you certainly are not complying with that instruction given to us in the quran. You are not adopting what the Prophet Mohammed sallalhu alaihe wasallam brought forward. He certainly did not read namaaz like you. How do you read your namaaz anyway, like what do you do exctly. im just interested, i do know you def dont do what the prophet Mohammed sallalhu alaihe wasallam did in his lifetime.

Thats the point of hadith, they are simply collections of the sayings of the Prophet, tell me how that is totally against islam?

i dont get it, Why would it be sinful for us to follow the path of the man who brought us the Quran. Why would it be sinful for us to act like him and want to be more like him?







You claim is that obeying the messenger includes something other than the Quran. Like I said before, it never said obey Muhammed pbuh, only obey the messenger.....

same thing that


The book and wisdom were given by God to Muhammed pbuh, it was not Muhammed's own created wisdom. The wisdom is with the book....IN the book. Allah gave Muhammed the book and the wisdom...just like his other messengers.

Since wisdom was given by GOD to other messengers, it cannot be the hadith and sunnah of Muhammed pbuh, nor sunnah of any other messengers pbut.
wisdom is in the book.

dunno
where does it say that in the quran?

also think deeply about this. You followed your science teacher in HS, did you not, why did you do that?

to learn right?

to LEARN, even though Allah gave them the wisdom and knowledge, how come you didnt say, NO im not following this, its not in the quran, im not following it?(even if you knew what they are teaching is correct)

now who possessed more knowledge, The Prophet mohammed or a science teacher?

you get what im saying dont you. You still followed the science teacher becuase you were learning things from him, he was passing his wisdom onto others. So like i said, who knew better, The Prophet or a science teacher.

youve got it in your head that the prophet possessed no knowledge other than what is in the Quran. NOT true. byebye

[LaBelleSeynorita]

I go to a Mosque where people of all backgrounds go. Id say the majority are Khoja, but theres a good mix of pakis, indians (me), even some bleck and white people. I guess there are places that are socially exclusive, but surely these are in areas that have a high proportion of that ethnicity? Im sure they are not being exclusive. At the end of the day, everyone is welcome as a brother (or sister). No matter what background you have. Thats what I have found from my experiences, and why I think Islam is an amazing religion.

Obviously when it come to cricket then u paki bastards can fak off! India! India! India! :D :D

i go 2 a mosq where most of the ppl r Khoja's (i am 2 )
n alot of other ppl cum der 2... but every1 treats each other approprietly... background deosnt really matter... we all follow Islam.. we all follow 1 god (Allah)


the only diffrence in sum muslims is that not every1 eccepts the Wilayat part of the Kalema....... ( Suni's have diffrent Kalema then the Khoja Shia's )...

im proud of having a Suni mother n a Shia dad... that way i can learn both ways of Islam.... :D

[londonnaz]

Whatever the Messenger brings to you, adopt it, and whatever he forbids you, refrain from it (al-Hashr, 59.7)

thats enough for me to beleive in what the prophet brought to us.

actually see i beleive in what the last Prophet sallalhu alaihe wasallam brought to us, i try to adopt it but im a weak muslim.
you on the otherhand, do you adopt what the Prophet Mohammad sallalhu alaihe wasallam brought forward?

do you.

it says ADOPT IT if it was asking us to follow the Quran alone then we would be instructed to only follow the Quran and there would be no mention of the messenger.

you though, im not one to call you a non muslim or anything, but you certainly are not complying with that instruction given to us in the quran. You are not adopting what the Prophet Mohammed sallalhu alaihe wasallam brought forward. He certainly did not read namaaz like you. How do you read your namaaz anyway, like what do you do exctly. im just interested, i do know you def dont do what the prophet Mohammed sallalhu alaihe wasallam did in his lifetime.

Thats the point of hadith, they are simply collections of the sayings of the Prophet, tell me how that is totally against islam?

i dont get it, Why would it be sinful for us to follow the path of the man who brought us the Quran. Why would it be sinful for us to act like him and want to be more like him?









same thing that





wisdom is in the book.

dunno
where does it say that in the quran?

also think deeply about this. You followed your science teacher in HS, did you not, why did you do that?

to learn right?

to LEARN, even though Allah gave them the wisdom and knowledge, how come you didnt say, NO im not following this, its not in the quran, im not following it?(even if you knew what they are teaching is correct)

now who possessed more knowledge, The Prophet mohammed or a science teacher?

you get what im saying dont you. You still followed the science teacher becuase you were learning things from him, he was passing his wisdom onto others. So like i said, who knew better, The Prophet or a science teacher.

youve got it in your head that the prophet possessed no knowledge other than what is in the Quran. NOT true. byebye


^^^^ TOP POST, well said

Dont worry about him bruv, he seems lost and as it as has been said before hes tailoring the deen to suit himself and in actual fact what "He believes is the correct way" the shocking part of this is all is the fact without actually saying it in so many words, he has clearly implied and suggested that nothing else counts apart from the words of the quran and therefore the sayings and teachings and actions of our prophet is wrong, and therefore we as sunnis oe believers in hadeeth are wrong for trying to practice our religion the way our prophet practiced it and the way he lived his life. The best way to put it is "Islam is a way of Life" wich covers every aspect detailing from how we should eat, sleep pray, conduct business, law etc etc and what other better example is there to follow it other than the way our prophet practiced it and followed it and to copy the way he conducted his submission to allah (swt) throught his life

[Waliy Allah]

Assalamu Alaikum,

1. This thread has been hijacked so bad. lol :p

2. We really should avoid flaming each other. It doesn't really achieve anything, and just makes the other parties more defensive.

3. Anti Desi, we could go on and on about providing quotes to support each side of the view but let's just use some common sense. Wouldn't it be common sense to follow the guidance of the person who was chosen to deliver the message? Wouldn't he know more than all others, considering he recieved the message? Surely, there must have been a reason Allah chose him over all others.

4. You say that the opinions of scholars can be tainted and opinionated. How about your own opinions? Are they free from bias? You certainly present Quraniyyin philosophy that way. The difference is that if scholars make a mistake, they have to answer to thousands, if not more, people. You don't answer to anyone, at least in this world. So in fact, your own opinions are much more tainted, because you will tailor your own interpretations of the Qur'an to your own activities.

5. The current detailed form of prayer comes down through example of our predecessors. If you're Qur'an only, how do accept this example? A detailed way to pray salat is simply not in the Qur'an.
http://muttaqun.com/salah.html

6. Nice job finding those quotes about Hajj, really. :) But let's say you're going to Hajj in two weeks. Are you telling me you won't read any other sources of information so you're prepared for the journey? Are you sure that you will be in within the bounds of all the intricacies of Hajj?

[londonnaz]

Assalamu Alaikum,

1. This thread has been hijacked so bad. lol :p

2. We really should avoid flaming each other. It doesn't really achieve anything, and just makes the other parties more defensive.

3. Anti Desi, we could go on and on about providing quotes to support each side of the view but let's just use some common sense. Wouldn't it be common sense to follow the guidance of the person who was chosen to deliver the message? Wouldn't he know more than all others, considering he recieved the message? Surely, there must have been a reason Allah chose him over all others.

4. You say that the opinions of scholars can be tainted and opinionated. How about your own opinions? Are they free from bias? You certainly present Quraniyyin philosophy that way. The difference is that if scholars make a mistake, they have to answer to thousands, if not more, people. You don't answer to anyone, at least in this world. So in fact, your own opinions are much more tainted, because you will tailor your own interpretations of the Qur'an to your own activities.

5. The current detailed form of prayer comes down through example of our predecessors. If you're Qur'an only, how do accept this example? A detailed way to pray salat is simply not in the Qur'an.
http://muttaqun.com/salah.html

6. Nice job finding those quotes about Hajj, really. :) But let's say you're going to Hajj in two weeks. Are you telling me you won't read any other sources of information so you're prepared for the journey? Are you sure that you will be in within the bounds of all the intricacies of Hajj?




is it just me or does anyone else notice that anti desi doesnt reply or answer back to something he cant argue with, weird that innit ?? :sarb:

[arbigooner]

great stuff there. I'm a silent spectator of this thread btw.

[x_babytee_x]

:sarb:
:drama2:

[x_babytee_x]

i go 2 a mosq where most of the ppl r Khoja's (i am 2 )
n alot of other ppl cum der 2... but every1 treats each other approprietly... background deosnt really matter... we all follow Islam.. we all follow 1 god (Allah)


the only diffrence in sum muslims is that not every1 eccepts the Wilayat part of the Kalema....... ( Suni's have diffrent Kalema then the Khoja Shia's )...

im proud of having a Suni mother n a Shia dad... that way i can learn both ways of Islam.... :D

dnt mean 2 sound nasty babe burrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt shouldn't there only be one way of islam? at the end of the day islam's a complete way of life do's and don'ts are blatently stated u can't pick and choose from different "schools of thought" to what suits u...

and anti-desi dude... stop bein a jew! u keep questioning and manipulating everything

try http://www.askimam.org/ if u really want some indepth information :)

[The Anti Desi]

Whatever the Messenger brings to you, adopt it, and whatever he forbids you, refrain from it (al-Hashr, 59.7)

thats enough for me to beleive in what the prophet brought to us.

actually see i beleive in what the last Prophet sallalhu alaihe wasallam brought to us, i try to adopt it but im a weak muslim.
you on the otherhand, do you adopt what the Prophet Mohammad sallalhu alaihe wasallam brought forward?

do you.

it says ADOPT IT if it was asking us to follow the Quran alone then we would be instructed to only follow the Quran and there would be no mention of the messenger.

you though, im not one to call you a non muslim or anything, but you certainly are not complying with that instruction given to us in the quran. You are not adopting what the Prophet Mohammed sallalhu alaihe wasallam brought forward. He certainly did not read namaaz like you. How do you read your namaaz anyway, like what do you do exctly. im just interested, i do know you def dont do what the prophet Mohammed sallalhu alaihe wasallam did in his lifetime.

Thats the point of hadith, they are simply collections of the sayings of the Prophet, tell me how that is totally against islam?

i dont get it, Why would it be sinful for us to follow the path of the man who brought us the Quran. Why would it be sinful for us to act like him and want to be more like him?

I, for one......am shocked......

Its one thing to forget about other verses.....its another thing to ignore the rest of the verse.


59:1 Whatever is in the heavens and on earth, let it declare the Praises and Glory of Allah. for He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

59:2 It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes at the first gathering (of the forces). Little did ye think that they would get out: And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah. But the (Wrath of) Allah came to them from quarters from which they little expected (it), and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers, take warning, then, O ye with eyes (to see)!

59:3 And had it not been that Allah had decreed banishment for them, He would certainly have punished them in this world: And in the Hereafter they shall (certainly) have the Punishment of the Fire.

59:4 That is because they resisted Allah and His Messenger. and if any one resists Allah, verily Allah is severe in Punishment.

59:5 Whether ye cut down (O ye Muslim!) The tender palm-trees, or ye left them standing on their roots, it was by leave of Allah, and in order that He might cover with shame the rebellious transgresses.

59:6 What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger (and taken away) from them - for this ye made no expedition with either cavalry or camelry: but Allah gives power to His messengers over any He pleases: and Allah has power over all things.

59:7 What Allah has bestowed on His Messenger (and taken away) from the people of the townships,- belongs to Allah,- to His Messenger and to kindred and orphans, the needy and the wayfarer; In order that it may not (merely) make a circuit between the wealthy among you. So take what the Messenger assigns to you, and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you. And fear Allah. for Allah is strict in Punishment.

59:8 (Some part is due) to the indigent Muhajirs, those who were expelled from their homes and their property, while seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure, and aiding Allah and His Messenger. such are indeed the sincere ones:-

Read the verses. It is about the war with the disbelievers who fought against the messenger. The verse is not talkin about any sunnah, teachings, or actions. Its about restoring property, wealth, and orphans. This is the restoration process after the fight. Its the balance of wealth. God has permitted the messenger to fight against those who fight against him, and the messenger is in command, the property and orphans seized are at the hands of the messenger.

Is this what your scholars teach you...nitpicking verses and ignoring the rest of the verse???? Many have done the same to justify unrestricted polygamy. If you are gonna ignore parts of Quran to make a contention, then I have no idea about your belief.


same thing that

If that were the case, that would that Muhammed instituted his OWN teachings in the Quran.......but he did not.

10:15 And when Our clear revelations are recited unto them they who look not for the meeting with Us say: Bring a Lecture other than this, or change it. Say (O Muhammad): It is not for me to change it of my own accord. I only follow that which is inspired in me. Lo! If I disobey my Lord I fear the retribution of an awful Day.

We cannot obtain the Quran from God alone.....the Quran was sent by the MESSENGER. Therefore, that is how we obey God AND the messenger. And those who accept the Quran....has obeyed the message...the word of God.

wisdom is in the book.

dunno
where does it say that in the quran?

also think deeply about this. You followed your science teacher in HS, did you not, why did you do that?

to learn right?

to LEARN, even though Allah gave them the wisdom and knowledge, how come you didnt say, NO im not following this, its not in the quran, im not following it?(even if you knew what they are teaching is correct)

now who possessed more knowledge, The Prophet mohammed or a science teacher?

you get what im saying dont you. You still followed the science teacher becuase you were learning things from him, he was passing his wisdom onto others. So like i said, who knew better, The Prophet or a science teacher.

youve got it in your head that the prophet possessed no knowledge other than what is in the Quran. NOT true. byebye
Read those verses I posted before.......GOD gives the wisdom. It is GOD's wisdom......not the Prophets' pbut own wisdom. Where is God's wisdom???? In the book. The book contains the wisdom of God, and God gives the wisdom to the messenger, and the messenger delivers God's wisdom to us.

As stated before, the messenger only delivers the message. The messenger has not power to implement the message.....only to deliver and follow. The book is God's message given to the messenger....to deliver God's wisdom.

[The Anti Desi]

Assalamu Alaikum,

1. This thread has been hijacked so bad. lol :p

2. We really should avoid flaming each other. It doesn't really achieve anything, and just makes the other parties more defensive.

3. Anti Desi, we could go on and on about providing quotes to support each side of the view but let's just use some common sense. Wouldn't it be common sense to follow the guidance of the person who was chosen to deliver the message? Wouldn't he know more than all others, considering he recieved the message? Surely, there must have been a reason Allah chose him over all others.

4. You say that the opinions of scholars can be tainted and opinionated. How about your own opinions? Are they free from bias? You certainly present Quraniyyin philosophy that way. The difference is that if scholars make a mistake, they have to answer to thousands, if not more, people. You don't answer to anyone, at least in this world. So in fact, your own opinions are much more tainted, because you will tailor your own interpretations of the Qur'an to your own activities.

5. The current detailed form of prayer comes down through example of our predecessors. If you're Qur'an only, how do accept this example? A detailed way to pray salat is simply not in the Qur'an.
http://muttaqun.com/salah.html

6. Nice job finding those quotes about Hajj, really. :) But let's say you're going to Hajj in two weeks. Are you telling me you won't read any other sources of information so you're prepared for the journey? Are you sure that you will be in within the bounds of all the intricacies of Hajj?
1. It would be great guidance if I actually met the Muhammed pbuh, and was able to hear everything from his mouth. The only document that fulfills that criteria is the Quran. The hadiths are NOT directly from his mouth.....it was written by someone who was born 200 years AFTER HIS DEATH. The Sahih Bukhari is anything but Sahih.....its tainted hearsay that defames our Prophet and our religion. And anything else after Bukhari is bound to be anything but less than tainted. I highly doubt the Prophet did half the horrors explained in the book, and I definitely doubt anything that goes against the
Quran.

2. What do you mean I don't answer to anybody??? I am the only "religious" one in my family. I am the one to checks the script for myself and others. Are you saying these scholars are holy simply because they have masses following them???? These masses of people do not even check the Quran themselves. If people want to make sure they are receiving the true word of God, they check it themselves, and these scholars forbid them to check the scripts themselves. They only tell them to follow the opinions. These scholars are not holy......and I am not claiming any holiness above them....but at least I let people check and make their own opinions.

3. Example of predecessors??? Half of these hadiths are not even written in any formal text, let alone a book of God (and no, the Sahih's are not a divine revelation). And they are on different accounts of different people.....supposedly written by a man who never even saw Muhammed pbuh. And it still does not give coherent overview....hardly any of this is written in the Sahih books of prayer. And none give the number of these "rakats" either. It would make one sense if Muhammed pbuh taught us the prayer....but this is nothing but observation and speculation.....pure conjecture. The Tashahhud alone is enough proof that this prayer is wrong.

4. The only other information I need is the political status of where I am going, the geographic locale, and social environment. If there is anything else that concerns me, it is my safety and security, but there is nothing else decreed by God.

[The Anti Desi]

dnt mean 2 sound nasty babe burrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt shouldn't there only be one way of islam? at the end of the day islam's a complete way of life do's and don'ts are blatently stated u can't pick and choose from different "schools of thought" to what suits u...

and anti-desi dude... stop bein a jew! u keep questioning and manipulating everything

try http://www.askimam.org/ if u really want some indepth information :)
Now thats uncalled for. I took a strict vow to understand my religion, and I will not stand to see my religion defamed.

Thats really not a cool thing to say to someone who is in disagreement with the Imams.

[Waliy Allah]

Assalamu Alaikum

1. It would be great guidance if I actually met the Muhammed pbuh, and was able to hear everything from his mouth. The only document that fulfills that criteria is the Quran. The hadiths are NOT directly from his mouth.....it was written by someone who was born 200 years AFTER HIS DEATH. The Sahih Bukhari is anything but Sahih.....its tainted hearsay that defames our Prophet and our religion. And anything else after Bukhari is bound to be anything but less than tainted. I highly doubt the Prophet did half the horrors explained in the book, and I definitely doubt anything that goes against the
Quran.
I never mentioned Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim, did I? I myself question the veracity of those collections.

2. What do you mean I don't answer to anybody??? I am the only "religious" one in my family. I am the one to checks the script for myself and others. Are you saying these scholars are holy simply because they have masses following them???? These masses of people do not even check the Quran themselves. If people want to make sure they are receiving the true word of God, they check it themselves, and these scholars forbid them to check the scripts themselves. They only tell them to follow the opinions. These scholars are not holy......and I am not claiming any holiness above them....but at least I let people check and make their own opinions.
No reason to get upset. You said yourself that your family is not religious, and some of them are agnostic, so it is my opinion that you don't answer to anyone. As for the scholars, I never said they're holy. But who is more prone to fallibility? You or them? They've spent their whole lives studying the history of Islam, understanding the contexts of when each revelation was given, understanding all the background, and you think they're more prone to fallibility than yourself?

3. Example of predecessors??? Half of these hadiths are not even written in any formal text, let alone a book of God (and no, the Sahih's are not a divine revelation). And they are on different accounts of different people.....supposedly written by a man who never even saw Muhammed pbuh. And it still does not give coherent overview....hardly any of this is written in the Sahih books of prayer. And none give the number of these "rakats" either. It would make one sense if Muhammed pbuh taught us the prayer....but this is nothing but observation and speculation.....pure conjecture. The Tashahhud alone is enough proof that this prayer is wrong.
So tell me, how do you pray?

4. The only other information I need is the political status of where I am going, the geographic locale, and social environment. If there is anything else that concerns me, it is my safety and security, but there is nothing else decreed by God.
Well Insha'llah when you go on Hajj, you won't need any other religious information. We'll see then. :)

dnt mean 2 sound nasty babe burrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt shouldn't there only be one way of islam? at the end of the day islam's a complete way of life do's and don'ts are blatently stated u can't pick and choose from different "schools of thought" to what suits u...

Yes, but the fact of the matter is that there are several predominant "way[s] of Islam." All schools of thought are recognized as correct and complete by the other schools. There's nothing wrong with following a school of thought, or else you will be doing everything yourself.

[El_Diablo]

Pakis, Bengalis, Indian, African Indian, Afghans, Blacks....

All Muslim, Yet All different tribes...

Where I live theres no mosques that are inclusive they're all exclusive... the paki mosque, the bengali mosque, the somalian mosque

and this leads into the way we live our lives and perceive other muslims 'brothers and sisters', theres no chance of marriage between us all, and if it does happen its usually against the wishes of the families involved

Islam and Culture has gotten so mixed up for the majority of Desi muslims that few know what Islam really is anymore...

you should be able to go to any mosque and feel comfortable to pray etc... but meh that just doesnt happen....

and unfortunatel it goes down to the younger gnerations too just ignorant and racist against their own without realising it...

Its a shame thats theres fuck all enlightened muslim leaders amongst the muslim community ... even if there was.. the Pakis wouldnt follow a bengali or a somalian and vice versa...

In a perfect world we would all see one another as brothers and sisters, look beyond the ethnic and see only the muslim...

What happened to One Ummah, One Faith?

do you think this will ever change?

Discuss
...

[El_Diablo]

Pakis, Bengalis, Indian, African Indian, Afghans, Blacks....

All Muslim, Yet All different tribes...

Where I live theres no mosques that are inclusive they're all exclusive... the paki mosque, the bengali mosque, the somalian mosque

and this leads into the way we live our lives and perceive other muslims 'brothers and sisters', theres no chance of marriage between us all, and if it does happen its usually against the wishes of the families involved

Islam and Culture has gotten so mixed up for the majority of Desi muslims that few know what Islam really is anymore...

you should be able to go to any mosque and feel comfortable to pray etc... but meh that just doesnt happen....

and unfortunatel it goes down to the younger gnerations too just ignorant and racist against their own without realising it...

Its a shame thats theres fuck all enlightened muslim leaders amongst the muslim community ... even if there was.. the Pakis wouldnt follow a bengali or a somalian and vice versa...

In a perfect world we would all see one another as brothers and sisters, look beyond the ethnic and see only the muslim...

What happened to One Ummah, One Faith?

do you think this will ever change?

Discuss
Therein lies the problem and solution.

:idea:

[GoddessOfLove720]

das da same 4 every religion. even tho we acredit wat religion we're frm, we acknowlege our background 2. i mean, theres korean, white, and black churches. ppl feel more comfortable with mostly their kind, i guess. i mean, im bengali, but wen i go 2 da mosque, i feel kinda left out, cuz da rets of the ppl r arabic, n they talk 2 each other in arabic... so its kinda akward... :neutral:

[x_babytee_x]

Yes, but the fact of the matter is that there are several predominant "way[s] of Islam." All schools of thought are recognized as correct and complete by the other schools. There's nothing wrong with following a school of thought, or else you will be doing everything yourself.

no no i know that what i meant is u can't pick and choose from different schools of thought and then stick them together to create ur own masterpiece!

[x_babytee_x]

Now thats uncalled for. I took a strict vow to understand my religion, and I will not stand to see my religion defamed.

Thats really not a cool thing to say to someone who is in disagreement with the Imams.

alright sorry if i hurt ur feelings....
but why are you arguing points when really you should just read into the religion? maybe go to some talks and lectures with scholars and ask them questions rather then people here who do not kno the religion inside out?

[arbigooner]

das da same 4 every religion. even tho we acredit wat religion we're frm, we acknowlege our background 2. i mean, theres korean, white, and black churches. ppl feel more comfortable with mostly their kind, i guess. i mean, im bengali, but wen i go 2 da mosque, i feel kinda left out, cuz da rets of the ppl r arabic, n they talk 2 each other in arabic... so its kinda akward... :neutral:
it doesnt matter who you feel comfortable with. In a house of God, you worship, you dont talk. No one can feel left out in a prayer, no one is unwelcome in a prayer. There is no such mosque that will deny entry to a Muslim of a different ethnicity. my point is, Mash007 may feel that Muslim ethnic culture is racist, but no mosque is racist, so its better to leave them out.

[Waliy Allah]

no no i know that what i meant is u can't pick and choose from different schools of thought and then stick them together to create ur own masterpiece!
Assalamu Alaikum,

Sorry for the misunderstanding. You're very right.

[londonnaz]

Read those verses I posted before.......GOD gives the wisdom. It is GOD's wisdom......not the Prophets' pbut own wisdom. Where is God's wisdom???? In the book. The book contains the wisdom of God, and God gives the wisdom to the messenger, and the messenger delivers God's wisdom to us.

As stated before, the messenger only delivers the message. The messenger has not power to implement the message.....only to deliver and follow. The book is God's message given to the messenger....to deliver God's wisdom.


Ur unbelievable LOL, what ur trying to say is that our prophet was a mere messenger just to deliver the words of the quran and nothing more??? which then means ur trying to elevate urself to the same level by saying yes the message has been delievered and thats all his job was , and now u think just because and i stress when i say this "U THINK U CAN INTERPRET THE QURAN" that makes ur way of following the religion the only right way of of doing so,,, well sorry mate....... i dont think so
so tell me exactly why do u think allah swt chose our our prophet pbuh ?? and what are u saying that none of his wisdom counts ? so anything he did or said outside the words of the quran that are a reflection of his interpretation of the message from allah are not true or correct ? and shudnt be trusted or followed ?? so who the hell are u to question his interpretation ? u think u can do a better job than our prophet did and therefore u think ur following he religion correctly ? ur really beginning to piss me off now with ur underlying comments, and god forbid i could never call another muslim a non muslim but ur opinions and statements questioning the validity of our prophets teachings and practices and his interpretation of the quran and the way he lived his life are rally way of the mark

[The Anti Desi]

Peace be upon you.

Assalamu Alaikum


I never mentioned Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim, did I? I myself question the veracity of those collections.

If even you question the veracity of what they put their books, how can you trust other stuff they have compiled????

No reason to get upset. You said yourself that your family is not religious, and some of them are agnostic, so it is my opinion that you don't answer to anyone. As for the scholars, I never said they're holy. But who is more prone to fallibility? You or them? They've spent their whole lives studying the history of Islam, understanding the contexts of when each revelation was given, understanding all the background, and you think they're more prone to fallibility than yourself?

And when material they present is not in or goes against the Quran (various death penalties, Muhammed possessing foresight and superpowers, additional prohibitions for diet or apparel), makes me think twice about what they say. I might be prone to fallibility, but they are still capable of deceiving. They may have spent their entire life "studying" it.....that does not mean right.

So tell me, how do you pray?
Wudu

4:43 O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For Allah doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.

Beginning

2:144 We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.

2:150 So from whencesoever Thou startest forth, turn Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque; and wheresoever ye are, Turn your face thither: that there be no ground of dispute against you among the people, except those of them that are bent on wickedness; so fear them not, but fear Me; and that I may complete My favours on you, and ye May (consent to) be guided;

6:162 Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds:
6:163 No partner hath He: this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who bow to His will.

Movement

2:238 Guard strictly your (habit of) prayers, especially the Middle Prayer; and stand before Allah in a devout (frame of mind).

4:102 When thou (O Messenger. art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them: When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms: the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.

4:103 When ye pass (Congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah's praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up Regular Prayers: For such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times.


22:26 Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying): "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
48:29 Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

Note in this verse

4:102 When thou (O Messenger. art with them, and standest to lead them in prayer, Let one party of them stand up (in prayer) with thee, Taking their arms with them: When they finish their prostrations, let them Take their position in the rear. And let the other party come up which hath not yet prayed - and let them pray with thee, Taking all precaution, and bearing arms: the Unbelievers wish, if ye were negligent of your arms and your baggage, to assault you in a single rush. But there is no blame on you if ye put away your arms because of the inconvenience of rain or because ye are ill; but take (every) precaution for yourselves. For the Unbelievers Allah hath prepared a humiliating punishment.

You start by standing……then bowing, then prostration….prostration is the end of Salat.

Recitation

29:44 Allah created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): verily in that is a Sign for those who believe.
29:45 Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee, and establish regular Prayer: for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that ye do.

3:113 Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of Allah all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration.
3:114 They believe in Allah and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous.

16:98 When thou dost read the Qur'an, seek Allah's protection from Satan the rejected one.

87:1 Glorify the name of thy Guardian-Lord Most High,
Sidenote: Sura 87 is a great verse to praise God.

50:40 And during part of the night, (also,) celebrate His praises, and (so likewise) after the postures of adoration.

All praise is to Allah.

17:110 Say: "Call upon Allah, or call upon Rahman: by whatever name ye call upon Him, (it is well): for to Him belong the Most Beautiful Names. Neither speak thy Prayer aloud, nor speak it in a low tone, but seek a middle course between."


17:111 Say: "Praise be to Allah, who begets no son, and has no partner in (His) dominion: Nor (needs) He any to protect Him from humiliation: yea, magnify Him for His greatness and glory!"


6:162 Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds:


Maybe I don't pray this way "Muslims" do......that is not my requirement. My requirement is to do what God says in his book.

Well Insha'llah when you go on Hajj, you won't need any other religious information. We'll see then. :)
Huh??? :-s

[The Anti Desi]

alright sorry if i hurt ur feelings....
but why are you arguing points when really you should just read into the religion? maybe go to some talks and lectures with scholars and ask them questions rather then people here who do not kno the religion inside out?
I have argued, and they ignore me or threaten me rather than debate. I argue because I do not find a Quranic basis for such things....implementations that have nothing to with our religion. Nothing shall be declared part of a religion that God does not state.

[The Anti Desi]

Ur unbelievable LOL, what ur trying to say is that our prophet was a mere messenger just to deliver the words of the quran and nothing more??? which then means ur trying to elevate urself to the same level by saying yes the message has been delievered and thats all his job was , and now u think just because and i stress when i say this "U THINK U CAN INTERPRET THE QURAN" that makes ur way of following the religion the only right way of of doing so,,, well sorry mate....... i dont think so
so tell me exactly why do u think allah swt chose our our prophet pbuh ?? and what are u saying that none of his wisdom counts ? so anything he did or said outside the words of the quran that are a reflection of his interpretation of the message from allah are not true or correct ? and shudnt be trusted or followed ?? so who the hell are u to question his interpretation ? u think u can do a better job than our prophet did and therefore u think ur following he religion correctly ? ur really beginning to piss me off now with ur underlying comments, and god forbid i could never call another muslim a non muslim but ur opinions and statements questioning the validity of our prophets teachings and practices and his interpretation of the quran and the way he lived his life are rally way of the mark
Then what do you make of this????

3:144 Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many Were the messenger that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will ye then Turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.

5:99 The Messenger's duty is but to proclaim (the message). But Allah knoweth all that ye reveal and ye conceal.

And whose interpretations are you talkin about???? The compassionate, gentle but strong Muhammed pbuh in the Quran is who I follow, as well as the other example figures in the Quran, not Bukhari's stories of Muhammed pbuh.

[Waliy Allah]

Assalamu Alaikum
If even you question the veracity of what they put their books, how can you trust other stuff they have compiled????
I'm Shia; we don't give Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim as much importance as other schools of thought do. Nevertheless, the texts we do use make Shia, in practice, nearly the same as other Muslims.


And when material they present is not in or goes against the Quran (various death penalties, Muhammed possessing foresight and superpowers, additional prohibitions for diet or apparel), makes me think twice about what they say. I might be prone to fallibility, but they are still capable of deceiving. They may have spent their entire life "studying" it.....that does not mean right.
Well of course you're prone to fallibility; you're human after all.


Maybe I don't pray this way "Muslims" do......that is not my requirement. My requirement is to do what God says in his book.
What you've established is Bidah based on the conjecture that the Qur'an has the entire salat. It has no historical precedence. No where in the Qur'an does it say "this surah is a guidebook for prayer; do it exactly like this." If there was such a thing in the Qur'an, it would all be together and not scattered, right? It's just general information.
What do you recite during Qiyam?

3.7 of the Qur'an states:
YUSUFALI: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.
PICKTHAL: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.
SHAKIR: He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

Obviously, we have to follow men of understanding, and it refers to people like Quraniyyin that "follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation."

Wasalam.

Edit: I was wondering if you follow the people who call themselves the "Submitters" by any chance. They're Quraniyyin.

[The Anti Desi]

Well of course you're prone to fallibility; you're human after all.

And so are these “scholars”. When they preach practices that go against the Quran……I lose all trust.

What you've established is Bidah based on the conjecture that the Qur'an has the entire salat. It has no historical precedence. No where in the Qur'an does it say "this surah is a guidebook for prayer; do it exactly like this." If there was such a thing in the Qur'an, it would all be together and not scattered, right? It's just general information.
What do you recite during Qiyam?

You claiming that there missing details in the Quran, and the Quran does not have everything, that the there is only one way of praying is very unquranic…..and claiming that there is another book of God is an outrage. To claim any other text has an Islamic jurisprudence is innovation.

16:89 One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people): and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

6:38 There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have we omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.

6:114 Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

6:115 The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all.

12:1 A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book.
12:2 We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.

To claim that there is another Book that has God’s command is innovation, and claim there is only one absolute way to pray is also an innovation.

5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

18:54 We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious.

The Quran gives us the guidelines…..if God need anymore details, it would be in the Quran. It is not at the discretion of scholarly intermediaries to determine the details….it is at the discretion of the believer/s. As long as the details do not transgress God’s laws, all is just in the eyes of God. God gave us rules about diet, working for money, sex, and traveling. God did not say what is the best way to cook/prepare food, what jobs are allowed, the intricate details on how to have sex, or the correct mode of travel. Why??? Because it is not necessary. If God is giving very details of such things but does not give details of other things, it is because those other details do not concern God. It has nothing to do with our salvation. God has given us the basic rules….and that is what we abide by. Everything else is at the believers’ discretion.

And if you truly believe that it should be in one Surah explaining it, then maybe the same should have been done by the hadith books……

And what is Qiyam??? You talking about the optional late night vigil prayer???


3.7 of the Qur'an states:


Obviously, we have to follow men of understanding, and it refers to people like Quraniyyin that "follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation."
Now that is the most ignorant remark I have read.

First of all…….where does it say to follow “the men of understanding”??? Where does it give power to “these men of understanding”???? Where does it say “these men of understanding” are the ones who make the rules??? It never said show obedience to “these men of understanding”. The men of understanding are those who adhere to the Quran, not enforce the Quran. God said obey God and the one who delivers the message of God…..and the Quran only fits that criteria. Only the Quran is the word of God, and the message delivered….therefore, true believers are those who obey the Quran….not other men.

Second…that comment about Quran-only is false. Quran-only take everything of the Quran into account….unlike those who follow such Sunnah and reject verses out of the Quran. Those are the ones who ignored the word of God. The Quran-only don’t follow whims of extraneous sources….they follow the everything that is revealed to them. There are many verses that are allegorical....like the description of heaven and hell, the miracles performed, the image of Allah. That is allegorical, and no matter how much we try, we will never find the truth. That only Allah knows. Anyone who tries to interpret the allegorical verses is practicing an exercise in futility. But these are not verses that dictate law on earth. They are not verses that talk about our actions. They are those basic and fundamental rules. God has already mentioned those rules, and had he wanted laws on earth derived by them, God would not have made it allegorical. And I don't know if it said anywhere where Muhammed pbuh or “these men of understanding” “explain hidden verses in the Quran".


Edit: I was wondering if you follow the people who call themselves the "Submitters" by any chance. They're Quraniyyin.
I might be in agreement with many of the propositions of the Submitters, but one thing I am not is a Khalifite. So no, I am not of those Submitters.

[Waliy Allah]

Assalamu Alaikum

And so are these “scholars”. When they preach practices that go against the Quran……I lose all trust.
Sounds like you've been only meeting some wierd scholars.

You claiming that there missing details in the Quran, and the Quran does not have everything, that the there is only one way of praying is very unquranic…..and claiming that there is another book of God is an outrage. To claim any other text has an Islamic jurisprudence is innovation.
I never said there is another book of Allah, so I would ask you to not put words in my mouth. ;) The Qur'an is whole, but it is up to learned men and tradition that many of our practices have come down. If you think the Qur'an has detailed everything in the universe, then tell me where the Qur'an talks about the electron arrangement of osmium. As for prayer, the way we must pray is the way Prophet Muhammad taught us to pray, and that's the prayer you see most Muslims doing.

God did not say what is the best way to cook/prepare food, what jobs are allowed, the intricate details on how to have sex, or the correct mode of travel. Why??? Because it is not necessary. If God is giving very details of such things but does not give details of other things, it is because those other details do not concern God. It has nothing to do with our salvation. God has given us the basic rules….and that is what we abide by. Everything else is at the believers’ discretion.
Islam isn't just some set of rules that you consider and say "I'm not breaking those rules so whatever I'm doing is fine." Islam provides for a lifestyle. Practically everything concerns religion - you just cut it out for convenience.

And what is Qiyam??? You talking about the optional late night vigil prayer???
Qiyam is the "standing" part of prayer.

Now that is the most ignorant remark I have read.

First of all…….where does it say to follow “the men of understanding”???
I expected you to put your own spin on the verse, although its meaning is obvious.

unlike those who follow such Sunnah and reject verses out of the Quran.
Please provide examples..

one thing I am not is a Khalifite
Good to hear that brother.

I think this will be my last post in this thread, because I don't feel it's going anywhere.

Allahu Alam.

[The Anti Desi]

Sounds like you've been only meeting some wierd scholars.
Try askimam.org or islam.tc. Those are usually what those guys at the mosque recommend.

I never said there is another book of Allah, so I would ask you to not put words in my mouth. ;)
So how can you say there is additional laws for Islam that are not in the Quran.

The Qur'an is whole, but it is up to learned men and tradition that many of our practices have come down.
Quranic quote, please.

Traditions are what created the innovations. God did not sent this for one tradition....God sent it for people of all traditions. Otherwise, you take out the universitality of Islam. We are to follow God's laws, not people's traditions.

If you think the Qur'an has detailed everything in the universe, then tell me where the Qur'an talks about the electron arrangement of osmium.
I am sure that is required for our salvation :rolleyes:

God has provided everything for ISLAM. Its a book on being a Muslim, practicing Islam, and living a good wholesome life.

As for prayer, the way we must pray is the way Prophet Muhammad taught us to pray, and that's the prayer you see most Muslims doing.
If the Prophet pbuh taught us to pray this way, like I said, it would be in one complete uninterrupted script....not a cobweb of random quotes.

You sure this is the way he prayed??? I highly doubt the Prophet pbuh glorified himself when praying God.

Islam isn't just some set of rules that you consider and say "I'm not breaking those rules so whatever I'm doing is fine." Islam provides for a lifestyle. Practically everything concerns religion - you just cut it out for convenience.
Islam provides laws for LIFESTYLES. There is not one absolute way. God's law applies everywhere, everytime in my life, as it should yours too. They limit certain details....NOT THE LIFE YOU CHOOSE.

So tell me, is it against God's law if I choose to be an auto mechanic, computer scientist, or a farmer??? Are you telling me that the Islamic lifestyle cannot cater these choices???? God's laws still apply no matter what you do, but does not restrict from making these choices.

I expected you to put your own spin on the verse, although its meaning is obvious.
Show me the verses that make that obvious.

Please provide examples..
Stoning for adultery, additional diet restrictions, such as seafood, and unnecessary slaughering process, death penalty for apostacy (in fact, any death penalty on believers whatsoever), claiming Muhammed pbuh intercedes on behalf of believers.

I think this will be my last post in this thread, because I don't feel it's going anywhere.
Provide me authentic Quranic quotes, then we might be going somewhere.

Peace be upon you.

[greenismine]

Try askimam.org or islam.tc. Those are usually what those guys at the mosque recommend.


So how can you say there is additional laws for Islam that are not in the Quran.


Quranic quote, please.

Traditions are what created the innovations. God did not sent this for one tradition....God sent it for people of all traditions. Otherwise, you take out the universitality of Islam. We are to follow God's laws, not people's traditions.


I am sure that is required for our salvation :rolleyes:

God has provided everything for ISLAM. Its a book on being a Muslim, practicing Islam, and living a good wholesome life.


If the Prophet pbuh taught us to pray this way, like I said, it would be in one complete uninterrupted script....not a cobweb of random quotes.

You sure this is the way he prayed??? I highly doubt the Prophet pbuh glorified himself when praying God.


Islam provides laws for LIFESTYLES. There is not one absolute way. God's law applies everywhere, everytime in my life, as it should yours too. They limit certain details....NOT THE LIFE YOU CHOOSE.

So tell me, is it against God's law if I choose to be an auto mechanic, computer scientist, or a farmer??? Are you telling me that the Islamic lifestyle cannot cater these choices???? God's laws still apply no matter what you do, but does not restrict from making these choices.


Show me the verses that make that obvious.


Stoning for adultery, additional diet restrictions, such as seafood, and unnecessary slaughering process, death penalty for apostacy (in fact, any death penalty on believers whatsoever), claiming Muhammed pbuh intercedes on behalf of believers.


Provide me authentic Quranic quotes, then we might be going somewhere.

Peace be upon you.



Try askimam.org or islam.tc. Those are usually what those guys at the mosque recommend......how can u trust yur mosque......my mosque is denominational.......they r tableeghi....they think allah is everythign and everywhere physically, not his knowledge......wot should i say to my mosque...

[The Anti Desi]

Try askimam.org or islam.tc. Those are usually what those guys at the mosque recommend......how can u trust yur mosque......my mosque is denominational.......they r tableeghi....they think allah is everythign and everywhere physically, not his knowledge......wot should i say to my mosque...
I don't trust many mosques....and I certainly don't trust those websites.

[greenismine]

I don't trust many mosques....and I certainly don't trust those websites.

nor do i......the nation of islam has a mosque.....i went there sure i was the only person nto black not the point........there were like yah elijah's son warratudin was born under emaculate conception....i think i spelled tht rite...haha yah rite his mom probably left him lol.....it sounds mean but hello islam is not abt black nationalism 4 godsake.....im so wot if its atlanta!!!!!!! uhhh there is this 1 imam thts in jail cuz he was a black panther ppl..and we av a gay imam tht preaches at churches.....uh sum of the ppl who convert have the worst seminars....i went 2 1 and he wuz screaming and he got every1 excited but omg i didnt learn 1 thing......then i wuz liek wot do u convert from...he wuz like a southern baptist priest was i b4....hmmmm not 2 b like mean or anything but in the south......christian baptists preach loud!!!!

[The Anti Desi]

nor do i......the nation of islam has a mosque.....i went there sure i was the only person nto black not the point........there were like yah elijah's son warratudin was born under emaculate conception....i think i spelled tht rite...haha yah rite his mom probably left him lol.....it sounds mean but hello islam is not abt black nationalism 4 godsake.....im so wot if its atlanta!!!!!!! uhhh there is this 1 imam thts in jail cuz he was a black panther ppl..and we av a gay imam tht preaches at churches.....uh sum of the ppl who convert have the worst seminars....i went 2 1 and he wuz screaming and he got every1 excited but omg i didnt learn 1 thing......then i wuz liek wot do u convert from...he wuz like a southern baptist priest was i b4....hmmmm not 2 b like mean or anything but in the south......christian baptists preach loud!!!!
I don't even think about the nation of Islam. And what exactly does this gay imam preach????

Though some of those southern preacher do put a heck of a show and sermon :D

[greenismine]

I don't even think about the nation of Islam. And what exactly does this gay imam preach????

Though some of those southern preacher do put a heck of a show and sermon :D

guess.... homosexuality........is ok.......

lol southern preacher yes they do put emotion...but wots the point if yur not gonna teach anything

[The Anti Desi]

guess.... homosexuality........is ok.......

lol southern preacher yes they do put emotion...but wots the point if yur not gonna teach anything
Just because he says he is an imam, does not mean they know the quran :no:

[greenismine]

Just because he says he is an imam, does not mean they know the quran :no:

exactly but lol....my mosque doesnt even av an imam....they kicked out the last for stealing funds....lol.....mosque drama.....lol.....

[Waliy Allah]

Assalamu Alaikum
Try askimam.org or islam.tc. Those are usually what those guys at the mosque recommend.
LOL, I was right...I would hardly consider Mufti Ebrahim Desai a scholar. In his opinion, I am a kaafir because I am Shia, and you are a kaafir because you're Quraniyyin.

So how can you say there is additional laws for Islam that are not in the Quran.
Because they have been documented through the actions and sayings of the Prophet (s).

Traditions are what created the innovations. God did not sent this for one tradition....God sent it for people of all traditions. Otherwise, you take out the universitality of Islam. We are to follow God's laws, not people's traditions.
This is where the conflict between the Quraniyyin and the prevalent perspective occur. You believe these traditions are bidah, created by the people, whereas I think many of those practices are from the prophet. But I'm asking, if they were bidah, wouldn't they be stopped by people who had seen the actions of the prophet? If they are bidah, then people have been doing salat incorrectly for more than a millenium; that's strange to me.

If the Prophet pbuh taught us to pray this way, like I said, it would be in one complete uninterrupted script....not a cobweb of random quotes.
I provided that as an example; you asked to see where prayer is documented in hadeeth.

You sure this is the way he prayed??? I highly doubt the Prophet pbuh glorified himself when praying God.
It is not a glorification; it's a testament.

So tell me, is it against God's law if I choose to be an auto mechanic, computer scientist, or a farmer??? Are you telling me that the Islamic lifestyle cannot cater these choices???? God's laws still apply no matter what you do, but does not restrict from making these choices.
Well of course you can work as one of those examples. There's nothing morally incorrect with those. On the other hand you can't work as...hmmm how should I put it, a person on the street. I'm sure you know what I mean, and that restriction comes from Islam.

Show me the verses that make that obvious.
4.83, 16.43; I'm sure though that you'll provide your own tafsir for those verses. If you believe you have the ability to individually interpret every verse of the Qur'an any way you want it, then showing you any Qur'anic verse is futile, right?

[The Anti Desi]

Assalamu Alaikum

Because they have been documented through the actions and sayings of the Prophet (s).
And when are we instructed to follow the traditions of the Prophet??? We only accept his words...that is our only duty. The only words of the Prophet we follow is the word the Prophet mentioned of the divine inspiration....that is the Quran only. Muhammed pbuh followed that divine inspiration...that is what we follow.

This is where the conflict between the Quraniyyin and the prevalent perspective occur. You believe these traditions are bidah, created by the people, whereas I think many of those practices are from the prophet. But I'm asking, if they were bidah, wouldn't they be stopped by people who had seen the actions of the prophet? If they are bidah, then people have been doing salat incorrectly for more than a millenium; that's strange to me.
Just like stoning and other practices and beliefs for the last thousand years. Yes, they have been doing it wrong for the last thousand years.

None of these traditions were written when the Prophet pbuh was alive. Majority were written 200 years after his death. The Prophet nor any of the caliphates could testify amongst the veracity of these traditions.


I provided that as an example; you asked to see where prayer is documented in hadeeth.
Yes....and it is random hadeeths, not one quote from our Prophet pbuh. And many are through observations through 3rd-person accounts, not a first-person testimony.


It is not a glorification; it's a testament.
What testament???? Whose testament??? Contact prayer is connection with GOD, and we glorify GOD only.

6:162 Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds:

20:14 "Verily, I am Allah. There is no god but I: So serve thou Me (only), and establish regular prayer for celebrating My praise.

Well of course you can work as one of those examples. There's nothing morally incorrect with those. On the other hand you can't work as...hmmm how should I put it, a person on the street. I'm sure you know what I mean, and that restriction comes from Islam.
So your point is being??? I already stated that you can choose what you want, provided you don't break God's law.

4.83, 16.43; I'm sure though that you'll provide your own tafsir for those verses. If you believe you have the ability to individually interpret every verse of the Qur'an any way you want it, then showing you any Qur'anic verse is futile, right?
Still mentions nothing about following the "men of understanding". "Obey those in authority" does not refer to a clergy. God nor Muhammed pbuh authorized this clergy. Those "charged" "amongst them" includes the government THEY put in power. Those "charged" "amongst you" includes the government YOU put in power. There is nothing separating these "men of understanding" from the believers.

6:106 Follow what thou art taught by inspiration from thy Lord: there is no god but He: and turn aside from those who join gods with Allah.

God is telling us to follow the DIVINE INSPIRATION...the Quran, not some men who interpret it.

5:48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

God is speaking to the PEOPLE, and the different races of people (would not that mean different traditions). God did not say become one tradition. God is telling the PEOPLE to rule by the book....not these "men of understanding".

16:43 And before thee also the Messengers We sent were but men, to whom We granted inspiration: if ye realise this not, ask of those who possess the Message.

This is referring to those who received the divine inspiration....that being the chosen messengers (Moses, Jesus, Muhammed....) pbut. Still mentions nothing about these "men of understanding".

And what Quranic meaning???? You have showed me men's meanings, not what the Quran says.

Peace be upon you.