When was Jesus Born?

[infection]

i am writing an essay for my sister.. on how old is our calendar today after jesus was born... in other words how long is it been till 2005 and jesus christ's birth... well BC ends the day jesus christ was born and AD starts off from there...

now i went through a couple of websites and some of them say that the Best Guess is September 29, 5 B.C.

Biblical scholars readily tell us that it was most likely NOT on December 25th, A.D. 0. Why????

yes why... and i am kinda confused... if anyone can clarify this i wud be greatful..

Thanks guys :wavey:

[xxmiss lanka]

errr. i thought it was december 25th.

[infection]

errr. i thought it was december 25th.

exactly.. me too

[ana]

i knew these jehovah's witnesses and they also belive he was born in the month of september.(They don;t celebrate christmas/exchange gifts for christmas) I remember them talking about the wise men wouldn't be searching in december, and something about the star.
Ok yea, I'm not that helpful, nvm.

[xxmiss lanka]

exactly.. me too
yeah nvr know if the sources you`re looking at are reliable.
maybe in the paper you could write that theres a few different dates that people believe in or something of that sort? idk.

[reaz]

if you want an online source you could try en.wikipedia.org

[Enammmmm]

He was born 2,005 years ago??????????????? HAHAHAHA! :lol:

[infection]

i would think so too... see technically after he was born AD or CE kicked off isnt it ... so wud it be really wrong to say that its been 2005 years since the birth of Jesus?

[BigCrazyIndian]

Biblical scholars readily tell us that it was most likely NOT on December 25th, A.D. 0. Why????

yes why... and i am kinda confused... if anyone can clarify this i wud be greatful..

Thanks guys :wavey:

what I used to get told in Latin class was that he was actually born in the spring time around March or May and the reason that the birthday was changed was because the Romans used to celebrate Saturnalia around December 25th; bascially, they changed it to that time to facilitate conversion.

whether this is completely true or not, I don't know.

[vikvik12]

what I used to get told in Latin class was that he was actually born in the spring time around March or May and the reason that the birthday was changed was because the Romans used to celebrate Saturnalia around December 25th; bascially, they changed it to that time to facilitate conversion.

whether this is completely true or not, I don't know.
i was told the same in latin class as well..

[hey_jay37]

what I used to get told in Latin class was that he was actually born in the spring time around March or May and the reason that the birthday was changed was because the Romans used to celebrate Saturnalia around December 25th; bascially, they changed it to that time to facilitate conversion.

whether this is completely true or not, I don't know.

it is true. Christianity has tons of pagan traditions and dates that the Romans practice and recognize. Why do you think it strayed so far of Judaism? our sabbath is really suppose to be on the Saturday like Jews, but Emporer Constantine made the day of worship Sunday; the day they honored the Sun God, Apollo, anwayz...

[spice_of_life]

As far as i heard jesus was born on March 1, 7 BC. It was the roman emperor constantine who changed the birthday to december 25th, so that he cud seperate the birthdays and ultimately prove that jesus was christian. And its defintely not December 25th coz calenders where changed at certain point followed by moon sightings and all.

[xxmiss lanka]

As far as i heard jesus was born on March 1, 7 BC. It was the roman emperor constantine who changed the birthday to december 25th, so that he cud seperate the birthdays and ultimately prove that jesus was christian. And its defintely not December 25th coz calenders where changed at certain point followed by moon sightings and all.
i heard that too.
but then what about easter. is that date still accurate?

[Enammmmm]

i would think so too... see technically after he was born AD or CE kicked off isnt it ... so wud it be really wrong to say that its been 2005 years since the birth of Jesus?


I dont think it would be wrong.

[spice_of_life]

i heard that too.
but then what about easter. is that date still accurate?

no the date for easter isnt accurate either coz of moon sightings and calender change and all. There is a specific formula to determine the exact easter date which im not really sure of. But ppl tend to follow the same dates coz they had been doing so.

[xxmiss lanka]

no the date for easter isnt accurate either coz of moon sightings and calender change and all. There is a specific formula to determine the exact easter date which im not really sure of. But ppl tend to follow the same dates coz they had been doing so.
now im soo confused. i`ll just go with what i believe in :dunno:
so i`m geussing holy thursday, & good friday are off as well.. :neutral:

[x baby bably x]

why u writing it for her?? :shame:

[americanmohit]

jesus was born the day you were born. :p

[tamil_desi]

errr. i thought it was december 25th.

I think Christmas is observed on Dec. 25th because the Chrisitans wanted to convert the pagans. The pagans celebrated the Winter Solstace which is in Dec. So Christmas is observed in December.

[ohasanzoladiiio]

what I used to get told in Latin class was that he was actually born in the spring time around March or May and the reason that the birthday was changed was because the Romans used to celebrate Saturnalia around December 25th; bascially, they changed it to that time to facilitate conversion.

whether this is completely true or not, I don't know.

yeah a lot of stuff was modified so that it would be more consistent with pagan tradition. think about it... how many pagans would just scrap everything they know because they were told to worship something totally new...not many. the goal was to get people to convert.

actually there's a really good book i read in frosh soc. called "the rise of christianity" and it explains the spread of christianity through social networks rather than the actual tennants of the religion.

[ohasanzoladiiio]

i am writing an essay for my sister.. on how old is our calendar today after jesus was born... in other words how long is it been till 2005 and jesus christ's birth... well BC ends the day jesus christ was born and AD starts off from there...

now i went through a couple of websites and some of them say that the Best Guess is September 29, 5 B.C.

Biblical scholars readily tell us that it was most likely NOT on December 25th, A.D. 0. Why????

yes why... and i am kinda confused... if anyone can clarify this i wud be greatful..

Thanks guys :wavey:


btw... BC and AD don't stand for Before Christ and After Death...
Since you're doing the research I'll let you find that out :)

[ggggunit]

i am writing an essay for my sister.. on how old is our calendar today after jesus was born... in other words how long is it been till 2005 and jesus christ's birth... well BC ends the day jesus christ was born and AD starts off from there...

now i went through a couple of websites and some of them say that the Best Guess is September 29, 5 B.C.

Biblical scholars readily tell us that it was most likely NOT on December 25th, A.D. 0. Why????

yes why... and i am kinda confused... if anyone can clarify this i wud be greatful..

Thanks guys :wavey:

December 25th was not the real date, it was a date that the Roman Church set so they could have a Christian festival on that day to overshadow the pagan winter solstice festivals. The Calendar we follow (Ano Domini) was created by some monks a few centuries after Christs birth by adding up the Reign's of various kings and emporors. its therefore not exact so Jesus was mostliky born a few years earler than year 0 A.D.

[ggggunit]

btw... BC and AD don't stand for Before Christ and After Death...
Since you're doing the research I'll let you find that out :)

AD means "Ano Domini", not "After Death" "Ano Domini" is a latin phrase meaning "Year of the Lord"

[poojasxy]

december 25th.... a very long time ago.


but not before the time of calligula and nero.

it was definitely at the height of roman glory, thats for sure.

[Adz4eva]

Im pretty sure the prophet Jesus PBUH was born around spring time, dec 25th is nothing to do with him, I think thats when pagans use to celebrate the birth of one of their gods.

[Lust Buster]

actually there's a really good book i read in frosh soc. called "the rise of christianity" and it explains the spread of christianity through social networks rather than the actual tennants of the religion.Who wrote the book & when?

Many of you are right. The Catholic Church declared December 25th Christ's birthday because that's around the time of the winter solstice. The Germanic pagans celebrated the winter solstice, so making Christmas coincide with the winter solstice would make Christianity less unappealing.

[nabilah18]

I think Christmas is observed on Dec. 25th because the Chrisitans wanted to convert the pagans. The pagans celebrated the Winter Solstace which is in Dec. So Christmas is observed in December.


yeah.. after the Prophet Jesus.. christians made alot of changes to attract the pagans to the new religion... example: your sig

[ggggunit]

yeah.. after the Prophet Jesus.. christians made alot of changes to attract the pagans to the new religion... example: your sig


Example your sig, what do you mean by that? Are you reffering to this verse For God So Loved the World That He Gave His Only
Begotten Son, That Whosoever Believes in Him May Not
Perish But Have Eternal Life. John 3:16

Now, I take personal offense to that. Nothing has been changed and altered more than the quran. The Ummayads first changed it when they defeated the shiites and split islam. Varioius Caliphs changed it to suit their political aims. How dare you insult somone's religion like that....Bitch.

[Lust Buster]

Now, I take personal offense to that. Nothing has been changed and altered more than the quran. The Ummayads first changed it when they defeated the shiites and split islam. Varioius Caliphs changed it to suit their political aims. How dare you insult somone's religion like that....Bitch.
Where do you get that information?

[tamil_desi]

yeah.. after the Prophet Jesus.. christians made alot of changes to attract the pagans to the new religion... example: your sig

Are you saying Chrisitians edited the Bible? I dunno what your trying to say?

[tamil_desi]

Example your sig, what do you mean by that? Are you reffering to this verse

Now, I take personal offense to that. Nothing has been changed and altered more than the quran. The Ummayads first changed it when they defeated the shiites and split islam. Varioius Caliphs changed it to suit their political aims. How dare you insult somone's religion like that....Bitch.

I appreciate someone actually defending me. Thank you. There would be complete and utter outrage were I to say ANYTHING questioning Islam, but it's pefectly alright to blast Chrisitianity. I guess I have to deal with that.

[ggggunit]

I appreciate someone actually defending me. Thank you. There would be complete and utter outrage were I to say ANYTHING questioning Islam, but it's pefectly alright to blast Chrisitianity. I guess I have to deal with that.


no problem bro, i'm a Christian too, and no...you don't have to accept abuse from Muslims or anybody else. If the start S*** put them in their place. Just look at islam's history, they are in no position to point fingers or ridicule anyone.

[ggggunit]

Where do you get that information?

Books and articles than i've read in the past and Websites, you're a smart google it if you're interested.

[tamil_desi]

no problem bro, i'm a Christian too, and no...you don't have to accept abuse from Muslims or anybody else. If the start S*** put them in their place. Just look at islam's history, they are in no position to point fingers or ridicule anyone.

Well I don't want to stereotype an entire people on the basis of this one individual. I am not anti-Muslim by any means. I mean we have a common ancestor in Abraham. We have to get along.

[MR2Turbo]

Im pretty sure the prophet Jesus PBUH was born around spring time, dec 25th is nothing to do with him, I think thats when pagans use to celebrate the birth of one of their gods.
The romans combined pagan rituals and holidays with christianity because the christian population amongst them was gaining strength. They did this to try to pacify christianity and it has had a tremendous effect on them.

Makes sense.

A lot of christian stuff comes from persian pagan traditions.

[tamil_desi]

The romans combined pagan rituals and holidays with christianity because the christian population amongst them was gaining strength. They did this to try to pacify christianity and it has had a tremendous effect on them.

Makes sense.

A lot of christian stuff comes from persian pagan traditions.

Your overgeneralizing. A lot of Christian "stuff" comes from the Bible.

[MR2Turbo]

Your overgeneralizing. A lot of Christian "stuff" comes from the Bible.
King James version? Old testament? or the many other versions?

Why would christians want to change certain things in a religion from god to entice pagans? why does conversion matter so much to you, even if the conversions arent "legit."

[tamil_desi]

King James version? Old testament? or the many other versions?

Why would christians want to change certain things in a religion from god to entice pagans? why does conversion matter so much to you, even if the conversions arent "legit."

The different versions contain differences in wording not content. Are you a Muslim by the way?

[MR2Turbo]

The different versions contain differences in wording not content. Are you a Muslim by the way?
yes I am.
I wont go deeper into the things in the bible.
BUT this still leaves the question, why was there the need to change God's religion (which should be perfect) to suite pagan customs and or traditions? Wouldn't you think that it should be the other way around? Make the pagans believe in christianity? I just find that odd. Why should a perfect religion be infused with pagan things. I mean Abrahamic God dislikes pagans.

[tamil_desi]

yes I am.
I wont go deeper into the things in the bible.
BUT this still leaves the question, why was there the need to change God's religion (which should be perfect) to suite pagan customs and or traditions? Wouldn't you think that it should be the other way around? Make the pagans believe in christianity? I just find that odd. Why should a perfect religion be infused with pagan things. I mean Abrahamic God dislikes pagans.

You're a Muslim and you question the practice of conversion? Listen there is no doubt there have been misguided people who have distorted Chrisitanity at times. YOu are sterotyping Chrisitanity.

[MR2Turbo]

You're a Muslim and you question the practice of conversion? Listen there is no doubt there have been misguided people who have distorted Chrisitanity at times. YOu are sterotyping Chrisitanity.
I never said conversion is a bad thing, genius.

Hell yeah we convert. BUT we DONT change the faith for the benefit of the people we convert. Our religion hasnt been changed just to include some pagans. They have to change to our ideal, not the other way around.

[Princess_Ligi]

You're a Muslim and you question the practice of conversion? Listen there is no doubt there have been misguided people who have distorted Chrisitanity at times. YOu are sterotyping Chrisitanity.
hey, are you christian? Im christian too. nice to have another one on board.


it is true that they did change a few things around for the sake of conversion (which i dont believe in), and even some gospels were hidden or burned because it rivaled what the church had stated, as far as the rights of womena nd such, keeping only the gospels that agreed wiyth them, for example: Peter's gospels. We all know that he was a woman hating man, he asked to have Mary Madgalene go, always sayign that women were not as good. And other gospels, like the gospel of Mary, Love, and others were destroyed.

anyway, back ot the original question, no, December 25th is just a made up date. but i heard that he was born in the year 5 BC? :sarb:

and god does NOT hate pagans, he loves all sinners, even those who hurt him. He even talks of how we should love our gentile brothers and show the light of God to them.

[adren@line]

I appreciate someone actually defending me. Thank you. There would be complete and utter outrage were I to say ANYTHING questioning Islam, but it's pefectly alright to blast Chrisitianity. I guess I have to deal with that.

Question Islam all you want dude.

I do it all the time.
People get pissed.

Vat to do.

[parkinlotpimp]

i was Jesus in a past life

[Princess_Ligi]

Question Islam all you want dude.

I do it all the time.
People get pissed.

Vat to do.
yes, but here, its perfectly ok for people to say "youre lying you stupid bitch!" when you mention somethign like the greatest act of Love was when Jesus died for me. I dont ever say anythign like that about anyone else's religion, but just because my religion is a minority on these forums, its ok to bash it?

its ridiculous.

[adren@line]

so why doesnt God hate Pagans?

According to Muslims (your Abrahamic brothers), im damned to hell forever for being an infidel Hindu idolater.

[MR2Turbo]

hey, are you christian? Im christian too. nice to have another one on board.


it is true that they did change a few things around for the sake of conversion (which i dont believe in), and even some gospels were hidden or burned because it rivaled what the church had stated, as far as the rights of womena nd such, keeping only the gospels that agreed wiyth them, for example: Peter's gospels. We all know that he was a woman hating man, he asked to have Mary Madgalene go, always sayign that women were not as good. And other gospels, like the gospel of Mary, Love, and others were destroyed.

anyway, back ot the original question, no, December 25th is just a made up date. but i heard that he was born in the year 5 BC? :sarb:

and god does NOT hate pagans, he loves all sinners, even those who hurt him. He even talks of how we should love our gentile brothers and show the light of God to them.


YES this is true.

I mean muslims dont hate true christianity, but I mean the church destroyed things that it didnt agree with. WTF? What chrisitans believe now is what the church wants you to believe not necessarily what true christianity was.

[tamil_desi]

hey, are you christian? Im christian too. nice to have another one on board.


it is true that they did change a few things around for the sake of conversion (which i dont believe in), and even some gospels were hidden or burned because it rivaled what the church had stated, as far as the rights of womena nd such, keeping only the gospels that agreed wiyth them, for example: Peter's gospels. We all know that he was a woman hating man, he asked to have Mary Madgalene go, always sayign that women were not as good. And other gospels, like the gospel of Mary, Love, and others were destroyed.

anyway, back ot the original question, no, December 25th is just a made up date. but i heard that he was born in the year 5 BC? :sarb:

and god does NOT hate pagans, he loves all sinners, even those who hurt him. He even talks of how we should love our gentile brothers and show the light of God to them.


I didn't know you were Chrisitian...Cool..Nice to meet ya. The Chrisitian church has had some ominous occurances at some point. Really all religions have, but that cannot and does not overshadow the meaning of our religion.

[tamil_desi]

I never said conversion is a bad thing, genius.

Hell yeah we convert. BUT we DONT change the faith for the benefit of the people we convert. Our religion hasnt been changed just to include some pagans. They have to change to our ideal, not the other way around.

You cannot honestly tell me your religion has never had any changes. Isn't it true that after Muhammad recieved his revalation it was only recorded when he came back. I've heard that there were MANY versions of what was recorded. Also isn't it true that the wearing of Burkas and the treatment of women is not spelled out in the Koran, and that it is a product of tradition? Wouldn't that the changing of your religion? Correct me if I am wrong.

[bill]

You cannot honestly tell me your religion has never had any changes. Isn't it true that after Muhammad recieved his revalation it was only recorded when he came back. I've heard that there were MANY versions of what was recorded. Also isn't it true that the wearing of Burkas and the treatment of women is not spelled out in the Koran, and that it is a product of tradition? Wouldn't that the changing of your religion? Correct me if I am wrong.

The Qur'an hasn't had any changes made to it except for accentual changes for standardising the script for one dialect of Arabic. So no, the source of our religion, that being the Qur'an, has never had any 'changes' made to it that survived. What we have today is the compiled version of what Mohammad recited to his disciples sans minor accentual variations. It is true that there were "many" versions (these version arose again due to dialect differences, not meaningful differences) but once they were all collected they were all combined, and the remaining burnt. There is no reason to doubt the Qur'an authenticity as a piece of untampered historical text.

As for the wearing of burqa, that's a part of the Hadith which can change since it is not the word of Allah (The Qur'an is the word of Allah and is the ultimate source of everything that is Islam - orthodox or unorthodox).

[Adz4eva]

Another point, the Quran was memorised by heart, and is memorised to this day still by thousands upon thousands of people, so adding/deleting/changing bits would become quite easy to detect.

[ggggunit]

King James version? Old testament? or the many other versions?

Why would christians want to change certain things in a religion from god to entice pagans? why does conversion matter so much to you, even if the conversions arent "legit."


They did not change anything in the holy book, what the catholic church did was take Pagan traditions and put a christian meaning overthem ex. putting Christmas on the day of the Pagan winter solstice so that the pagan festival would be overshadowed by Christmas making it easier for Pagans to Convert and retain their culture. The Catholic church never changed the bible nor did they have reason too because they kept it in Latin and only the priests could read it. they just made up doctrines without any need for changing the bible.

[ggggunit]

yes I am.
I wont go deeper into the things in the bible.
BUT this still leaves the question, why was there the need to change God's religion (which should be perfect) to suite pagan customs and or traditions? Wouldn't you think that it should be the other way around? Make the pagans believe in christianity? I just find that odd. Why should a perfect religion be infused with pagan things. I mean Abrahamic God dislikes pagans.


No one condones what the Catholic church did, the Catholic church is just one branch of Christianity. The Catholic church fell under corrupt leadership early on because it became a political institution of the Roman empire, and as we all know power is attractive to evil men. There are lots of other Christian branches that did not inject paganism into the traditions of the Church, you cant condemn all Christians for what one group of them did.

[tamil_desi]

No one condones what the Catholic church did, the Catholic church is just one branch of Christianity. The Catholic church fell under corrupt leadership early on because it became a political institution of the Roman empire, and as we all know power is attractive to evil men. There are lots of other Christian branches that did not inject paganism into the traditions of the Church, you cant condemn all Christians for what one group of them did.

AMEN to that brother!

[Princess_Ligi]

No one condones what the Catholic church did, the Catholic church is just one branch of Christianity. The Catholic church fell under corrupt leadership early on because it became a political institution of the Roman empire, and as we all know power is attractive to evil men. There are lots of other Christian branches that did not inject paganism into the traditions of the Church, you cant condemn all Christians for what one group of them did.
exactly.

[tamil_desi]

exactly.

Is that a Racoon in your sig? That's so disturbing..lol
:roflbow:

[nabilah18]

why would God, in his glory and majesty, have a son?

[tamil_desi]

why would God, in his glory and majesty, have a son?

I've explained this to someone before (It may even have been you, not sure though). In Chrisitanity God is three in one. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

[nabilah18]

I've explained this to someone before (It may even have been you, not sure though). In Chrisitanity God is three in one. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

how can the son be equal to the father. how can the created be equal to the creator.

[tamil_desi]

how can the son be equal to the father. how can the created be equal to the creator.

The Trinity as it is called has been a topic of confusion at times. Jesus IS God. Jesus always existed. He took the form of man to take away the sins of man.

[nabilah18]

The Trinity as it is called has been a topic of confusion at times. Jesus IS God. Jesus always existed. He took the form of man to take away the sins of man.


Abraham, Moses, Noah all worshipped ONE GOD. the trinity came into being after the death of Jesus.

The Jewish creed of faith similar to the Muslim one reads:

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Jesus taught the same thing

"...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)

[tamil_desi]

Abraham, Moses, Noah all worshipped ONE GOD. the trinity came into being after the death of Jesus.

The Jewish creed of faith similar to the Muslim one reads:

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Jesus taught the same thing

"...The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)

The trinity dosen't refer to 3 Gods. It is God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

[adren@line]

why would God, in his glory and majesty, have a son?

Why would he talk to Arabs?

[tamil_desi]

Why would he talk to Arabs?

Well because many events in the Bible took place in present day Iraq. The Bible refers to the area as Mesopotamia or Babylon in many cases.

[adren@line]

Well because many events in the Bible took place in present day Iraq. The Bible refers to the area as Mesopotamia or Babylon in many cases.

So God loves Arabs?

[tamil_desi]

So God loves Arabs?

God loves everyone! :)

[adren@line]

God loves everyone! :)

So why does God only talk to middle easterners and Arabs?

[tamil_desi]

So why does God only talk to middle easterners and Arabs?

What?

[nabilah18]

Why would he talk to Arabs?

because the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is foretold in Deuteronomy.

God sent Prophets to all nations.

[ggggunit]

why would God, in his glory and majesty, have a son?

Have you read the bible? Do you know what the Bible means when it says the Jesus was the son of God? In the bible it is said that God *formed Jesus' body* in Mary's womb through some divine miracle without a man's sperm, not sex. How does that demean God's magesty and Glory. Read the New Testament before you make presumptions about what the bible says. Not everything your corrupt immam's say is truth.

[adren@line]

God sent Prophets to all nations.

prove it.

[tamil_desi]

because the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is foretold in Deuteronomy.

God sent Prophets to all nations.

Are you referring to Deuteronomy 18:18? If so did you read it until the end of the chapter?

[adren@line]

What?

Middle easterners are the only ones who have claimed that God has talked to them and that their message is the only right message.

[nabilah18]

Have you read the bible? Do you know what the Bible means when it says the Jesus was the son of God? In the bible it is said that God created Jesus in Mary's womb through some divine miracle without a man's sperm, not sex. How does that demean God's magesty and Glory. Read the New Testament before you make presumptions about what the bible says. Not everything your corrupt immam's say is truth.

Jesus was created ... God is not created.

[ggggunit]

how can the son be equal to the father. how can the created be equal to the creator.

The bible says in John 1:1 "In the Beginning was the word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God" and then skip up to 1:14 "And the word was made flesh and dwelt among us...." Read John 1:1 to 1:14 if you like. Jesus was not just a man, He was the Incarnation of God, as the bible says. They are one in the same, he is not a creation he is the creator incarnated into human form to deliver his message himself.

[tamil_desi]

Jesus was created ... God is not created.

"Creation" refers to God taking the form of Man.

[ggggunit]

Jesus was created ... God is not created.

No jesus wasn't created thats the wrong word, the human vessle which he dwelt in while on earth was formed in Mary's womb

[tamil_desi]

Middle easterners are the only ones who have claimed that God has talked to them and that their message is the only right message.

Many people (not only Middle Easterners) claim that they've talked to God. Prayer is talking to God.

[justbeinreal]

i am writing an essay for my sister.. on how old is our calendar today after jesus was born... in other words how long is it been till 2005 and jesus christ's birth... well BC ends the day jesus christ was born and AD starts off from there...

now i went through a couple of websites and some of them say that the Best Guess is September 29, 5 B.C.

Biblical scholars readily tell us that it was most likely NOT on December 25th, A.D. 0. Why????

yes why... and i am kinda confused... if anyone can clarify this i wud be greatful..

Thanks guys :wavey:


hopefully, for your sisters sake, your grammar will be better in the paper

[cabanachica]

Many people (not only Middle Easterners) claim that they've talked to God. Prayer is talking to God.


true true


CHRISTIAN PRIDE, PHIL! :D

[Adz4eva]

No jesus wasn't created thats the wrong word, the human vessle which he dwelt in while on earth was formed in Mary's womb

Just out of curiousity, which bible/testament do you follow? I once quoted something on these boards, I think it was from corinthians or leviticus... to which that person claimed is not the bible and they do not follow that part.

[ggggunit]

Just out of curiousity, which bible/testament do you follow? I once quoted something on these boards, I think it was from corinthians or leviticus... to which that person claimed is not the bible and they do not follow that part.


All scripture in the bible has authority, if the person was a christian and you quoted somthing from leviticus they might say they don't follow it. If they said they don't follow Corinthians they are not a Christian because Corinthian is a part of the Core Christian Texts. Leviticus contains the Jewish law, which was the pre-Christ system of Religion approved by God. When Christ came, he brought the revelation of a new system of salvation. We are no longer bound by Certain parts of the Old testament Jewish law (This is in the New testament), I'll find the book and verse for you if you would like.

[Adz4eva]

prove it.

From an islamic perspective the Quran is enough proof...

016.036
YUSUFALI: For We assuredly sent amongst every People a messenger, (with the Command), "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the People were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom error became inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those who denied (the Truth).

PICKTHAL: And verily We have raised in every nation a messenger, (proclaiming): Serve Allah and shun false gods. Then some of them (there were) whom Allah guided, and some of them (there were) upon whom error had just hold. Do but travel in the land and see the nature of the consequence for the deniers!

Two different translations there but both clearing stating that God sent warners/guides/prophets to EVERY 'nation' of people, Muhammed PBUH being the last who was sent to all mankind and his message (the Quran) which is still present today in its pure form.

[tamil_desi]

true true


CHRISTIAN PRIDE, PHIL! :D

lol wuz up? You only have 14 posts, you must a life, not like me..lol

[Adz4eva]

All scripture in the bible has authority, if the person was a christian and you quoted somthing from leviticus they might say they don't follow it. If they said they don't follow Corinthians they are not a Christian because Corinthian is a part of the Core Christian Texts. Leviticus contains the Jewish law, which was the pre-Christ system of Religion approved by God. When Christ came, he brought the revelation of a new system of salvation. We are no longer bound by Certain parts of the Old testament Jewish law (This is in the New testament), I'll find the book and verse for you if you would like.

Thought so and it doesnt actually suprise me. I respect you for actually calling yourself a christian and trying to follow the scripture you have and not totally disregarding it as so many so called 'christians' on this site do.

I believe in the Bible aswel as a book of God, but cant follow it because my personal belief is that its been tampered with by man, do you think its in its original form? And whats with all the different versions that keep coming out and getting updated? How can you 'update' Gods word?

[Princess_Ligi]

Is that a Racoon in your sig? That's so disturbing..lol
:roflbow:
lol its a big bad wolf.


anyways, to the people saying that jesus was "created" and asking why god would need a son, how better for God to prove his love for us, then by taking the form of a human being, his own son, and sacrificing that body for our sins? how are we supposed to relate to some other world diety without knowing that he loves us and would walk among us. After all, the earth was there for the devil to roam in, we needed God here too. We are told that we are ythe hands and feet and legs and arms of God here on this earth, so in that way, Jesus was also God's mouth, arms, hands, what have you. So many peopel were brought into the light of God because of Jesus's presence, especially now when they learn of his sacrifice.

that is love. jesus was God's testimony of his love for us. It isnt 3 different gods, the trinity makes up one god. The spirit is the most powerful. Once you feel the spirit you can NEVER deny God's awesome presence.

[tamil_desi]

lol its a big bad wolf.


anyways, to the people saying that jesus was "created" and asking why god would need a son, how better for God to prove his love for us, then by taking the form of a human being, his own son, and sacrificing that body for our sins? how are we supposed to relate to some other world diety without knowing that he loves us and would walk among us. After all, the earth was there for the devil to roam in, we needed God here too. We are told that we are ythe hands and feet and legs and arms of God here on this earth, so in that way, Jesus was also God's mouth, arms, hands, what have you. So many peopel were brought into the light of God because of Jesus's presence, especially now when they learn of his sacrifice.

that is love. jesus was God's testimony of his love for us. It isnt 3 different gods, the trinity makes up one god. The spirit is the most powerful. Once you feel the spirit you can NEVER deny God's awesome presence.


It's pretty cool to see there are fellow desis who are Christians and know what they are talking about.

[Princess_Ligi]

All scripture in the bible has authority, if the person was a christian and you quoted somthing from leviticus they might say they don't follow it. If they said they don't follow Corinthians they are not a Christian because Corinthian is a part of the Core Christian Texts. Leviticus contains the Jewish law, which was the pre-Christ system of Religion approved by God. When Christ came, he brought the revelation of a new system of salvation. We are no longer bound by Certain parts of the Old testament Jewish law (This is in the New testament), I'll find the book and verse for you if you would like.
Im trying to find the scripture about the lamb taking the place of the la, because the law was placed there until the lamb was offered.

[Princess_Ligi]

It's pretty cool to see there are fellow desis who are Christians and know what they are talking about.

Im happy to see you and gggunit speaking up for it, too.

[adren@line]

From an islamic perspective the Quran is enough proof...



and from the historical, rational, archeological, and scientific perspective, it most definitely is not.

[Adz4eva]

anyways, to the people saying that jesus was "created" and asking why god would need a son, how better for God to prove his love for us, then by taking the form of a human being, his own son, and sacrificing that body for our sins? how are we supposed to relate to some other world diety without knowing that he loves us and would walk among us. After all, the earth was there for the devil to roam in, we needed God here too. We are told that we are ythe hands and feet and legs and arms of God here on this earth, so in that way, Jesus was also God's mouth, arms, hands, what have you. So many peopel were brought into the light of God because of Jesus's presence, especially now when they learn of his sacrifice.

that is love. jesus was God's testimony of his love for us. It isnt 3 different gods, the trinity makes up one god. The spirit is the most powerful. Once you feel the spirit you can NEVER deny God's awesome presence.

No offense to you princess ligi, but its almost as though you think we dont have to account for ourselves and can do what the hell we want... because he came and died for our sins. Is that what you honestly believe? What was hell created for then?

[Princess_Ligi]

Thought so and it doesnt actually suprise me. I respect you for actually calling yourself a christian and trying to follow the scripture you have and not totally disregarding it as so many so called 'christians' on this site do.

I believe in the Bible aswel as a book of God, but cant follow it because my personal belief is that its been tampered with by man, do you think its in its original form? And whats with all the different versions that keep coming out and getting updated? How can you 'update' Gods word?
WHEN SOMETHING AS BIG AS jESUS COMES AROUND, HOW CAN YOU NOT?

the new testament was filled with the life and death of Jesus, the travels of Paul, words of disciples, all telling their tale of Jesus. They wrote it down so that the history would not be forgotten. it was important enough that they would DIE for a few words. the new testament also includes letters to churches, and John's vision in the revelations, where he writes in :

Revelations 22: 18-19---
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share int he tree of life and int he holy city, which are described in this book.


so basically, adding to the book further from revelations is a no no, but the new testament is comrised of letters and points of views from several different disciples.

[Princess_Ligi]

No offense to you princess ligi, but its almost as though you think we dont have to account for ourselves and can do what the hell we want... because he came and died for our sins. Is that what you honestly believe? What was hell created for then?
I dont believe I EVER said that. Of course you account for yourselves, there is a judgement day and you yourself know your sins. But even sinners are loved by God, and if you truly repent because you are truly sorry for what you did wrong, and ACCEPT the fact that Jesus is your personal saviour, then your name is written in the book of life. If not, you are thrown int he lake of Fire.

please dont put words in my mouth that I never said. I was talking about the wonderful power and love of god.

[ggggunit]

Thought so and it doesnt actually suprise me. I respect you for actually calling yourself a christian and trying to follow the scripture you have and not totally disregarding it as so many so called 'christians' on this site do.

I believe in the Bible aswel as a book of God, but cant follow it because my personal belief is that its been tampered with by man, do you think its in its original form? And whats with all the different versions that keep coming out and getting updated? How can you 'update' Gods word?
thank you for the kind words friend. Yeah most muslims tell me that they've been taught that the bible was tampered with. I can tell you that there are many ancient manuscripts of the bible throughout Europe and the middle east and it would be immpossible to change all of these documents which were in the hands of different authorities. All these ancient manuscripts contain the same content, the only discrepancies that may exist are in some gramatical problems. The "new, updated" versions that you see coming out are just translations, they don't affect the original Greek or Aramaic texts from which they are translated. They just use more modern language. The old King james version is written in Shakespear era english and it can be somewhat difficult to understand. It does not change God's word at all, compare a "new updated bible" to a old king james version of a catholic version or whatever you like and you'll see the only differnece is that one contains more modern English. The idea that Christians actually tamper with God's word freely is ludicrous and baseless, in fact one of the last verses of the bible Revelation 22:19 says that if anyone alters the texts of the bible God will erase his name from the book of life. Please learn the truth about Christianity and don't accept all the myths that people propogate about Christianity to discourage people from converting to it.

[ggggunit]

Im trying to find the scripture about the lamb taking the place of the la, because the law was placed there until the lamb was offered.

True, I think its in Isaiah somewhere where he gives the prophecy of Jesus coming and uses the metaphor of a lamb or somthing like that.

[Princess_Ligi]

thank you for the kind words friend. Yeah most muslims tell me that they've been taught that the bible was tampered with. I can tell you that there are many ancient manuscripts of the bible throughout Europe and the middle east and it would be immpossible to change all of these documents which were in the hands of different authorities. All these ancient manuscripts contain the same content, the only discrepancies that may exist are in some gramatical problems. The "new, updated" versions that you see coming out are just translations, they don't affect the original Greek or Aramaic texts from which they are translated. They just use more modern language. The old King james version is written in Shakespear era english and it can be somewhat difficult to understand. It does not change God's word at all, compare a "new updated bible" to a old king james version of a catholic version or whatever you like and you'll see the only differnece is that one contains more modern English. The idea that Christians actually tamper with God's word freely is ludicrous and baseless, in fact one of the last verses of the bible Revelation 22:19 says that if anyone alters the texts of the bible God will erase his name from the book of life. Please learn the truth about Christianity and don't accept all the myths that people propogate about Christianity to discourage people from converting to it.

exactly, we never CHANGED the meaning of the words of the authors of the gospels, instead we translated it into a more modern language, one that any one can understand, depending on their preferance. I read the New International Version. same stuffas the king james, only easier to read, and for me, easier to connect to.

[Adz4eva]

WHEN SOMETHING AS BIG AS jESUS COMES AROUND, HOW CAN YOU NOT?



Writing about the life of someone from someone elses perspective can hardly be called the word of God, I was only refering to the actual bible/testament which is revered as 'Gods word'. Humans make mistakes, God does not, so i disagree with you there, Gods word most definately does NOT need updating. If society changes, we should change ourselves to follow Gods command, not change Gods words to suit us eg. woman priests, homosexual marriages, what on Gods earth is that all about? One days its a no no, next its ok :neutral:

[Adz4eva]

I dont believe I EVER said that. Of course you account for yourselves, there is a judgement day and you yourself know your sins. But even sinners are loved by God, and if you truly repent because you are truly sorry for what you did wrong, and ACCEPT the fact that Jesus is your personal saviour, then your name is written in the book of life. If not, you are thrown int he lake of Fire.

please dont put words in my mouth that I never said. I was talking about the wonderful power and love of god.

Apologies, didnt intend to put anything in your mouth, I thought you were trying to suggest that 'God loves us, his son came and died for our sins therefore implying we dont have to account for ourselves.'

[ggggunit]

No offense to you princess ligi, but its almost as though you think we dont have to account for ourselves and can do what the hell we want... because he came and died for our sins. Is that what you honestly believe? What was hell created for then?

It doesn't work like that, the new testament says that Becoming a follower of Jesus means that you must deny your flesh and take on a new nature. Thats what it means when Christians talk about being born again. In one fo the Epistles the Apostle paul said that when we accept Christ we must become dead to sin, it should be like our sinful nature died on the cross. It also says that everytime we sin it is like we crucify christ afresh on the cross. So the bible definitely speaks out against the idea that one can sin all they want without repurcussion. And if you are not sincere about turning away from your sin you do not recieve forgiveness because God knows your heart. The doctrine of salvation through Christ's crucifixion is like the Levitical law (the law of moses) where a spotless (without blemish) lamb was sacrificed to God for the sins of the people. In the Levitical law the sins of the people were taken upon the lamb and God counted them as righteous (this is in the old testament, thats what the early Jewish religion was based on so you can read about it). Jesus acted as a sacrificial lamb for all of us and those who have faith in him have their sins forgiven and his righteousness is counted as theirs so they recieve salvation by this same principle.

[tamil_desi]

Writing about the life of someone from someone elses perspective can hardly be called the word of God, I was only refering to the actual bible/testament which is revered as 'Gods word'. Humans make mistakes, God does not, so i disagree with you there, Gods word most definately does NOT need updating. If society changes, we should change ourselves to follow Gods command, not change Gods words to suit us eg. woman priests, homosexual marriages, what on Gods earth is that all about? One days its a no no, next its ok :neutral:

Bible is the WORD OF GOD. God's word communicated to his followers who in turn recorded it.

[ggggunit]

Writing about the life of someone from someone elses perspective can hardly be called the word of God, I was only refering to the actual bible/testament which is revered as 'Gods word'. Humans make mistakes, God does not, so i disagree with you there, Gods word most definately does NOT need updating. If society changes, we should change ourselves to follow Gods command, not change Gods words to suit us eg. woman priests, homosexual marriages, what on Gods earth is that all about? One days its a no no, next its ok :neutral:

don't be foolish. The bible has not been changed to allow for homosexual marriage or female priests or whatever. People who do those things just ignore the bible or interpret it in accordance with their will and ideals. These people have always existed even fromt he earliest days of the Catholic church. The bible is the same today as it was in the 1700s and in 1000Ad and all the way back to Moses. We don't Change the content of the bible they might change an archaic word like "smite" to "kill" in a more updated english language version but as any person of the least intelligence knows, they are synonimous.

[Princess_Ligi]

Writing about the life of someone from someone elses perspective can hardly be called the word of God, I was only refering to the actual bible/testament which is revered as 'Gods word'. Humans make mistakes, God does not, so i disagree with you there, Gods word most definately does NOT need updating. If society changes, we should change ourselves to follow Gods command, not change Gods words to suit us eg. woman priests, homosexual marriages, what on Gods earth is that all about? One days its a no no, next its ok :neutral:
ok, then you tell me, since humans make mistakes, who wrote the quran? who wrote the old testament? HUMANS. they were also speaking with the holy spirit, God guided them, poured himself out into their quills and ink.

ANd if they all made a mistake, why is it that all of their stories add up, especially when theyve all written it at different times, and the scrolls were found in different times and areas? why does it all match? if it werent all true?

[ggggunit]

ok, then you tell me, since humans make mistakes, who wrote the quran? who wrote the old testament? HUMANS. they were also speaking with the holy spirit, God guided them, poured himself out into their quills and ink.

ANd if they all made a mistake, why is it that all of their stories add up, especially when theyve all written it at different times, and the scrolls were found in different times and areas? why does it all match? if it werent all true?



EXACTLY

[Adz4eva]

Please learn the truth about Christianity and don't accept all the myths that people propogate about Christianity to discourage people from converting to it.

Trust me mate I have no need to discourage anyone from anything, there is only one truth and its God who guides people on the right path. I hope it doesnt seem like im trying to have a go here, I myself believe without any doubt in Jesus PBUH and his miraculous birth (no male intervention), but I cant ever believe that he was God, when he himself use to pray to God.

Look at his own words...
I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. How be it when he, the spirit of Truth will come, he will guide you into all truth, for he shall speak not of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that he shall speak, and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine, and he shall show it unto you.
(Bible, John 16-12/14)

Who does Jesus PBUH speak off here? I read this verse and it strengthened my faith in Islam even more, because all muslims know that Muhammed PBUH was revealed the Quran by inspiration, the verses came to him and as he recited them they were written down by those who could write.

[Adz4eva]

don't be foolish. The bible has not been changed to allow for homosexual marriage or female priests or whatever. People who do those things just ignore the bible or interpret it in accordance with their will and ideals. These people have always existed even fromt he earliest days of the Catholic church. The bible is the same today as it was in the 1700s and in 1000Ad and all the way back to Moses. We don't Change the content of the bible they might change an archaic word like "smite" to "kill" in a more updated english language version but as any person of the least intelligence knows, they are synonimous.

That was my point entirely, those people existed then, and they exist now. To say the bible hasnt changed at all cant be true, I can point out many inconsistencies to you.

[ggggunit]

Trust me mate I have no need to discourage anyone from anything, there is only one truth and its God who guides people on the right path. I hope it doesnt seem like im trying to have a go here, I myself believe without any doubt in Jesus PBUH and his miraculous birth (no male intervention), but I cant ever believe that he was God, when he himself use to pray to God.

Look at his own words...
I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. How be it when he, the spirit of Truth will come, he will guide you into all truth, for he shall speak not of himself, but whatsoever he shall hear, that he shall speak, and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine, and he shall show it unto you.
(Bible, John 16-12/14)

Who does Jesus PBUH speak off here? I read this verse and it strengthened my faith in Islam even more, because all muslims know that Muhammed PBUH was revealed the Quran by inspiration, the verses came to him and as he recited them they were written down by those who could write.

Well, you choose to interpet that verse as reffering to the prophet Mohammed, i tell you that the verse reffered to the Holy spirit of God, who Christ's apostles recieved at Pentecost

[Princess_Ligi]

True, I think its in Isaiah somewhere where he gives the prophecy of Jesus coming and uses the metaphor of a lamb or somthing like that.
here I found it, in Romans chapter 5






1: Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2: Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God.
3: More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
4: and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
5: and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us.
6: While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7: Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man -- though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die.
8: But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
9: Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
10: For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
11: Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received our reconciliation.
12: Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned --
13: sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
14: Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15: But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
16: And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification.
17: If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18: Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.
19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous.
20: Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21: so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Princess_Ligi]

That was my point entirely, those people existed then, and they exist now. To say the bible hasnt changed at all cant be true, I can point out many inconsistencies to you.
where has the bible changed? it STILL says homosexuality is wrong. the bible has not changed. society has changed.

[ggggunit]

here I found it, in Romans chapter 5






1: Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
2: Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God.
3: More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance,
4: and endurance produces character, and character produces hope,
5: and hope does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit which has been given to us.
6: While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7: Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man -- though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die.
8: But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
9: Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
10: For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
11: Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received our reconciliation.
12: Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned --
13: sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
14: Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
15: But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
16: And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification.
17: If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
18: Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men.
19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous.
20: Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
21: so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


yeah, there it is

[Adz4eva]

ok, then you tell me, since humans make mistakes, who wrote the quran? who wrote the old testament? HUMANS. they were also speaking with the holy spirit, God guided them, poured himself out into their quills and ink.

ANd if they all made a mistake, why is it that all of their stories add up, especially when theyve all written it at different times, and the scrolls were found in different times and areas? why does it all match? if it werent all true?

No one has said they arent all true, I believe in the Bible as a book of God, I believe in ALL his messengers, but the messengers he sent were all sent to specific nations of people. Im not saying that the books/scriptures/prophets arent true, they ARE, but you cant follow something that has been tampered with because, WE do not know which part is Gods word, and which part is man made. The final messenger Muhammed PBUH was sent to ALL mankind, not just one nation, and his mesage the Quran is still here, intact in its arabic form (yes translations will vary, thats where its prone to human error). Take an arabic Quran, from China, America, France, and compare the arabic, every full stop is in the same place, its still being memorised by heart by millions of people to this day, Gods protection is on it.

[ggggunit]

That was my point entirely, those people existed then, and they exist now. To say the bible hasnt changed at all cant be true, I can point out many inconsistencies to you.


And i can point out many more inconsitancies, contradictions, and untruths in the quran to you? I don't get your point, at all I said that people don't need to change the bible to disobey Gods words. Historically people who have chosen to disobey the bible (like some Catholic popes) just supressed the distribution of the bible and interpreted the worlds in accordance with what they wanted to do or just flat out ignored some. The bible is still the same, compare it to any anceint texts and you'll see. There are biblical texts from 2000 to 3000 years ago and they match perfectly with the modern translations which we use today. and if you wanted to read the bible in original lanquage you'd have to learn Greek, Hebrew and perhaps Aramaic, thats 2 or 3 languages, you only need to learn one for the Quran so you do the math. and people translate the quran also so anway. :rolleyes:

[Princess_Ligi]

No one has said they arent all true, I believe in the Bible as a book of God, I believe in ALL his messengers, but the messengers he sent were all sent to specific nations of people. Im not saying that the books/scriptures/prophets arent true, they ARE, but you cant follow something that has been tampered with because, WE do not know which part is Gods word, and which part is man made. The final messenger Muhammed PBUH was sent to ALL mankind, not just one nation, and his mesage the Quran is still here, intact in its arabic form (yes translations will vary, thats where its prone to human error). Take an arabic Quran, from China, America, France, and compare the arabic, every full stop is in the same place, its still being memorised by heart by millions of people to this day, Gods protection is on it.
well why send one person when a group of people with the same testimony can travel to all nations and spread the word of god? its the same principle as killing two birds with one stone, its more efficient. and no one was forced into it. These disciples knew what was in store for them, jesus said that if the world hated him, they would hate them too. peter was crucified upside down!!! thomas was viciously murdered in india! paul, i belive, rotted away in prison. John was exiled! thats quite a price to pay. you think if one person went out and tried to reach the nations, Jesus's legacy would have been so widespread?

The bible is the same as it ever was, the old testament was never tampered with, the new testament is just as important as the old. it has NOT been tampered with. its just an addition to whats already there, a confirmation if you will of God's greatness. Jesus is a very important part , for somethign liek that to not be recorded, how will his legacy live on?

get this through your head: the bible has not changed! anyoen who told you otherwise, LIED.

[ggggunit]

No one has said they arent all true, I believe in the Bible as a book of God, I believe in ALL his messengers, but the messengers he sent were all sent to specific nations of people. Im not saying that the books/scriptures/prophets arent true, they ARE, but you cant follow something that has been tampered with because, WE do not know which part is Gods word, and which part is man made. The final messenger Muhammed PBUH was sent to ALL mankind, not just one nation, and his mesage the Quran is still here, intact in its arabic form (yes translations will vary, thats where its prone to human error). Take an arabic Quran, from China, America, France, and compare the arabic, every full stop is in the same place, its still being memorised by heart by millions of people to this day, Gods protection is on it.

I believe i read somewhere that when Caliph Umar assembled the Quran after Muhammed's death there were already inconsistan versions of his many revelations in existence, and he just chose the ones he like had his scholars assemble them into the quran and he burned the original manuscripts. sounds like the book was tampered with too from that, considering the type of person Umar was (A polotician who's cheif contribution to islam was the Conquest of Jerusalem, Syria and many other territories.) i wouldn't trust the quran that much.

[ggggunit]

well why send one person when a group of people with the same testimony can travel to all nations and spread the word of god? its the same principle as killing two birds with one stone, its more efficient. and no one was forced into it. These disciples knew what was in store for them, jesus said that if the world hated him, they would hate them too. peter was crucified upside down1 thomas was viciously murdered in india1 paul, i belive, rotted away in prison. John was exiled! thats quite a price to pay. you think if one person went out and tried to reach the nations, Jesus's legacy would have been so widespread?

The bible is the same as it ever was, the old testament was never tampered with, the new testament is just as important as the old. it has NOT been tampered with. its just an addition to whats already there, a confirmation if you will of God's greatness. Jesus is a very important part , for somethign liek that to not be recorded, how will his legacy live on?

get this through your head: the bible has not changed! anyoen who told you otherwise, LIED.

Exactly, Mohammed and his successors just made up all that crap to discredit Christianity so that they could have some basis upon which to promote their religion. All the stuff the muslims are taught about Christians changing the bible and stuff is baseless and ludicrous. Mohammed comes on the Scene 700+ years after Jesus was born and wants to say that he was never crucified and all the BS...

please :mad:

[Adz4eva]

And i can point out many more inconsitancies, contradictions, and untruths in the quran to you? I don't get your point, at all I said that people don't need to change the bible to disobey Gods words. Historically people who have chosen to disobey the bible (like some Catholic popes) just supressed the distribution of the bible and interpreted the worlds in accordance with what they wanted to do or just flat out ignored some. The bible is still the same, compare it to any anceint texts and you'll see. There are biblical texts from 2000 to 3000 years ago and they match perfectly with the modern translations which we use today. and if you wanted to read the bible in original lanquage you'd have to learn Greek, Hebrew and perhaps Aramaic, thats 2 or 3 languages, you only need to learn one for the Quran so you do the math. and people translate the quran also so anway. :rolleyes:

There are no contradictions in the Quran at all, I stand by that, the only thing that is possible is for there to be human error when translating to a different language. Id love to continue this one but its now 2am and im due up for 7.30 so I really have gotta go for now : ) good chatting to you will continue another time God willing.

[Princess_Ligi]

Exactly, Mohammed and his successors just made up all that crap to discredit Christianity so that they could have some basis upon which to promote their religion. All the stuff the muslims are taught about Christians changing the bible and stuff is baseless and ludicrous. Mohammed comes on the Scene 700+ years after Jesus was born and wants to say that he was never crucified and all the BS...

please :mad:
exactly, how the HELL are you going to say that Jesus was never crucified, when History proves that he was? Im lookign for something that proves that he was crucified, brb

[ggggunit]

There are no contradictions in the Quran at all, I stand by that, the only thing that is possible is for there to be human error when translating to a different language. Id love to continue this one but its now 2am and im due up for 7.30 so I really have gotta go for now : ) good chatting to you will continue another time God willing.

ok, we will continue this another time, God willing.

[Adz4eva]

where has the bible changed? it STILL says homosexuality is wrong. the bible has not changed. society has changed.

...and I could have sworn it was you saying to some gay person, its cool, God loves you, you should be ashamed of yourself for not telling them what God really says about homosexuality.

(please ignore the above if it wasnt you but im 95% sure it was, username rings a bell)

[Adz4eva]

exactly, how the HELL are you going to say that Jesus was never crucified, when History proves that he was? Im lookign for something that proves that he was crucified, brb

Cool lol, prove to me that he was crucified and il convert to christianity RIGHT NOW, well not right now because iv got to gooo, but il be back to continue this next time God willing, peace to you all :wavey:

[ggggunit]

exactly, how the HELL are you going to say that Jesus was never crucified, when History proves that he was? Im lookign for something that proves that he was crucified, brb


And thats one of the reasons i don't believe that Mohammed was a true prophet. I mean he was born 700 and somthing years after christ, then he wants to go against every historian talk about what Christ did and he didn't do like he has any clue about what he's talking about. The Guy was full of SH**, he was just making up stuff to discredit Christianity because he was in competition with it for converts. Its Bs, all the bible being altered bull sh** and Jesus never being crucified (which he chose to say because the crucifixion and ressurection is at the core of Christianity...notice all the political implications of such a statement). None of the crap the muslims say has any basis in fact, only in mohammed's political intrests.

[ggggunit]

...and I could have sworn it was you saying to some gay person, its cool, God loves you, you should be ashamed of yourself for not telling them what God really says about homosexuality.

(please ignore the above if it wasnt you but im 95% sure it was, username rings a bell)


probably was her but if it was, she was not incorrect in telling the person that God loves them. It is true that God loves them though they are sinners or else he would would have ended their lives and sent them to hell long ago, we are all sinners and such is the case for all of us. God loving you means that he will show you mercy if you turn away from your sin and submit to his law and follow the path of righteousness. If you tell somone who's actively engaged in a sinful lifestyle that God loves them, you should qualify the statement by telling them what they are doing is wrong. You are doing them a disservice by creating the impression that God accepts homosexuality, which is totally not the case.

[Princess_Ligi]

...and I could have sworn it was you saying to some gay person, its cool, God loves you, you should be ashamed of yourself for not telling them what God really says about homosexuality.

(please ignore the above if it wasnt you but im 95% sure it was, username rings a bell)
yes, i did say that. because god DOES love the gay person, just as he loves a murderer, just as he loves an adulterer. But personally, I (call me hypocrite) am not going to hate someone because of their sexual orientations, but that as Christians, we are supposed to show love to everyone. , thats just me. i never said god condoned it.

[ggggunit]

Cool lol, prove to me that he was crucified and il convert to christianity RIGHT NOW, well not right now because iv got to gooo, but il be back to continue this next time God willing, peace to you all :wavey:

There are countless Historians from the period and afterwards who say that Jesus was Crucified. Look up the Historian Josephus (thats one i know of in particular) there are others, google it. and look for books about it. There is no doubt that Jesus was Crucified. How could the Romans have been converted to Christianity which says that Jesus was crucified by and ressurected if he wasn't really crucified. The Romans know who they execute and who they don't execute.

[bill]

I think the Jehova's Witnesses have it almost right. They don't believe in the Trinity and nor do they believe Jesus is God. I mean think about it - God taking form? That's introducing all sorts of logical inconsistencies. And the whole Trinity business was thought up my Aguinas and recorded in a way that adds mysticism to Catholicism, that is it. 3 does not equate to 1, no matter what spin you put on it.

[bill]

yes, i did say that. because god DOES love the gay person, just as he loves a murderer, just as he loves an adulterer. But personally, I (call me hypocrite) am not going to hate someone because of their sexual orientations, but that as Christians, we are supposed to show love to everyone. , thats just me. i never said god condoned it.

Lol. You have no idea who God selectively 'loves' and doesn't, so leave the hippy talk for the toke-parties.

[Princess_Ligi]

I think the Jehova's Witnesses have it almost right. They don't believe in the Trinity and nor do they believe Jesus is God. I mean think about it - God taking form? That's introducing all sorts of logical inconsistencies. And the whole Trinity business was thought up my Aguinas and recorded in a way that adds mysticism to Catholicism, that is it. 3 does not equate to 1, no matter what spin you put on it.
no, i strongly disagree with jehovah's witnesses. jesus, yes, is God in a sense that he is part of him, the human flesh form. i dont think you have the idea of the trinity in your head correctly.

[Princess_Ligi]

Lol. You have no idea who God selectively 'loves' and doesn't, so leave the hippy talk for the toke-parties.
umm actually it talks in excess about how Gos loves the sinner (not the sin), so since we are ALL guilty of sin, then he loves us ALL.

I may know a little more than you think. ;)

[ggggunit]

I think the Jehova's Witnesses have it almost right. They don't believe in the Trinity and nor do they believe Jesus is God. I mean think about it - God taking form? That's introducing all sorts of logical inconsistencies. And the whole Trinity business was thought up my Aguinas and recorded in a way that adds mysticism to Catholicism, that is it. 3 does not equate to 1, no matter what spin you put on it.


LOL Jehovas witnesses, you must be very ignorant to say that do you know what they beleive? They don't beleive in the trinity thats correct, they believe that Jesus was God's first creation, some special type of Angel or somthing. And they beleive that the Devil was Jesus brother. The Jehovas witnesses are a derranged cult, i'm surpries you hold them in such high esteem.

1. Who is Aguinas? Maybe you mean Saint Aquinus. he did not come up with the doctrine of the trinity himself, to blabber ignorance. The doctrine of the trinity is just the theological name for what one sees in the bible about God existing in 3 personalities (The father, The word/The sone, The holy spirit).

2. 3 does not equate one? the doctrine of the trinity doesn't say that there are 3 Gods, or even 3 parts that make up one God. What the trinity means is that God interacts with this universe which he created in 3 manifestations. If you read variouis verses throughout the old and new testament you will see it. In these verses Gen. 16:7-12; 21: 17-18; 22:11-18; Ex. 3:2; Jud. 2:1-4; 5:23; 6:11-24; 13:3-22; II Sam. 24:16; Zech. 1:12; 3:1; 12:8 it talks about "the Angel of the Lord" that angel was the pre-incarnate Jesus (The word of God) and if you read it you'll see that it speaks as God wereas other angels that are messengers say that "thus Says the lord" or somthing like that. Jesus the man was the incarnation of "The Word of God" mentioned in John 1:1 and John 1:14.

[Princess_Ligi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golgotha

check that out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion#History_of_crucifixion
^^about crucifixion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_of_Nazareth

^^jesus as a historical figure

[MR2Turbo]

Lets stops bitching. We all believe that we're right. Only one way to find out, and thats on judgement day. We'll all know the truth soon enough.

[ggggunit]

Lets stops bitching. We all believe that we're right. Only one way to find out, and thats on judgement day. We'll all know the truth soon enough.


Exactly, lets let it rest kiddos

[bill]

LOL Jehovas witnesses, you must be very ignorant to say that do you know what they beleive? They don't beleive in the trinity thats correct, they believe that Jesus was God's first creation, some special type of Angel or somthing. And they beleive that the Devil was Jesus brother. The Jehovas witnesses are a derranged cult, i'm surpries you hold them in such high esteem.

Yes of course you see them as a 'derranged' cult since they don't buy into any of your beliefs. I didn't say I held them in "high" esteem but I do believe in the whole scheme of things they make more sense than the Roman Catholics.

1. Who is Aguinas? Maybe you mean Saint Aquinus. he did not come up with the doctrine of the trinity himself, to blabber ignorance. The doctrine of the trinity is just the theological name for what one sees in the bible about God existing in 3 personalities (The father, The word/The sone, The holy spirit).

Aguinas solidified the idea. Or obfuscated it more, depending on which you prefer.

2. 3 does not equate one? the doctrine of the trinity doesn't say that there are 3 Gods, or even 3 parts that make up one God. What the trinity means is that God interacts with this universe which he created in 3 manifestations. If you read variouis verses throughout the old and new testament you will see it. In these verses Gen. 16:7-12; 21: 17-18; 22:11-18; Ex. 3:2; Jud. 2:1-4; 5:23; 6:11-24; 13:3-22; II Sam. 24:16; Zech. 1:12; 3:1; 12:8 it talks about "the Angel of the Lord" that angel was the pre-incarnate Jesus (The word of God) and if you read it you'll see that it speaks as God wereas other angels that are messengers say that "thus Says the lord" or somthing like that. Jesus the man was the incarnation of "The Word of God" mentioned in John 1:1 and John 1:14.

Now there are 3 manifestations of creation? Haha. Like I said, the whole idea fo Trinity is one borne of obfuscation, and you're just proving my point.

[ggggunit]

Yes of course you see them as a 'derranged' cult since they don't buy into any of your beliefs. I didn't say I held them in "high" esteem but I do believe in the whole scheme of things they make more sense than the Roman Catholics.



Aguinas solidified the idea. Or obfuscated it more, depending on which you prefer.

There is no Aguinas don't you see the difference between your Aguinas and Aquinus or do you need to return to preschool?

Now there are 3 manifestations of creation? Haha. Like I said, the whole idea fo Trinity is one borne of obfuscation, and you're just proving my point
"3 manifestations of creation" I never talked about anything like that, don't make up bullshit my friend. what is the obfuscation that you speak of?

[bill]

What the trinity means is that God interacts with this universe which he created in 3 manifestations.

=> created in 3 manifestations => three manifestations of creation

Oh and excuse the typo

[infection]

ok so the bottomline is.. ??

[ggggunit]

=> created in 3 manifestations => three manifestations of creation

Oh and excuse the typo


i didn't say anything was created in 3 manifestations, or that there are 3 manifestations of creation. Get your reading comprehension together :rolleyes:

[bill]

i didn't say anything was created in 3 manifestations, or that there are 3 manifestations of creation. Get your reading comprehension together

I'm quoting you here:

2. 3 does not equate one? the doctrine of the trinity doesn't say that there are 3 Gods, or even 3 parts that make up one God. What the trinity means is that God interacts with this universe which he created in 3 manifestations.

Maybe you should learn what you yourself are talking about? What exactly are you talking about? Seems you have no clue yourself.

[Adz4eva]

get this through your head: the bible has not changed! anyoen who told you otherwise, LIED.

II Samuel 24:13 (King James Version)

"So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me."


I Chronicles 21:11/21:12 (King James Version)

"So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee.
Either three years' famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the LORD, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel."


Three years or seven years, which is it?


II Chronicles 36:9 (King James Version)

"Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD."

II Kings 24:8 (King James Version)

"Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem."

So, was he eight or was he eighteen?


I can continue but I'll stop there, and if you think im making up the quotes please go here and enter the correct verse and see for yourself...

http://bibletools.org//index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show


So, has the Creator in his infinite wisdom made these errors, or has it been mans doing?

[Adz4eva]

ok so the bottomline is.. ??

...muslims regard Jesus PBUH as one of the mightiest messengers of God, and we bow down in worship to the same God that Jesus use to pray too (as mentioned so many times in the Bible), muslims believe in the Oneness of God that Jesus taught, and we believe in his miraculous birth. Christians however, say that Jesus was part of a trinity and the son of God, and he was crucified.

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ, Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them." Quran 4:156-159

[infection]

...muslims regard Jesus PBUH as one of the mightiest messengers of God, and we bow down in worship to the same God that Jesus use to pray too (as mentioned so many times in the Bible), muslims believe in the Oneness of God that Jesus taught, and we believe in his miraculous birth. Christians however, say that Jesus was part of a trinity and the son of God, and he was crucified.

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ, Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them." Quran 4:156-159

agreed... i know this ... and a little more too.. what i am really confused is that when was he really born? in my thinking historians in all times have been forced to record dates the ways their kings wanted them to... and unlike our Quran, the Bible comes in different versions and i have also read in different posts and also some of the sites claimin different dates..

and one more thing.. this is the 21st century(2001 to 2100).. so does this mean that we are actually on this site..lol posting on the forums 2005 years after jesus was born? are we ?

[Adz4eva]

agreed... i know this ... and a little more too.. what i am really confused is that when was he really born? in my thinking historians in all times have been forced to record dates the ways their kings wanted them to... and unlike our Quran, the Bible comes in different versions and i have also read in different posts and also some of the sites claimin different dates..

and one more thing.. this is the 21st century(2001 to 2100).. so does this mean that we are actually on this site..lol posting on the forums 2005 years after jesus was born? are we ?

People can always have rough ideas when Jesus PBUH was born but I dont think anyone is certain. One thing that is most likely is, it wasnt during the winter time...

---------------------------------------------------------
Quote:

At the time of Christ's birth, the shepherds tended their flocks in the fields at night. "Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields," wrote one Gospel writer, "keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:8). A common practice of shepherds was keeping their flocks in the field from April to October, but in the cold and rainy winter months they took their flocks back home and sheltered them.

The Gospels record Jesus' birth as occurring during the reign of Herod the Great. Herod's death is recorded by Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (Antiquities of the Jews, Josephus, Book 17, Chpt. 8) and occurred in the spring of 4 B.C. (New Testament History, F.F. Bruce, Anchor Books, p.23). Therefore, Christ's birth had to take place at least four years before the traditional date.

----------------------------------------------------------

[ggggunit]

I'm quoting you here:



Maybe you should learn what you yourself are talking about? What exactly are you talking about? Seems you have no clue yourself.

You misunderstood, i should have punctuated it properly, maybe you would understand better, i was trying to convey that "God interacts with the universe, which he created, in 3 manifestations (the three persons of the trinity)" Sorry for the confusion.

[ggggunit]

II Samuel 24:13 (King James Version)

"So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me."


I Chronicles 21:11/21:12 (King James Version)

"So Gad came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee.
Either three years' famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the LORD, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel."


Three years or seven years, which is it?


II Chronicles 36:9 (King James Version)

"Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD."

II Kings 24:8 (King James Version)

"Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem."

So, was he eight or was he eighteen?


I can continue but I'll stop there, and if you think im making up the quotes please go here and enter the correct verse and see for yourself...

http://bibletools.org//index.cfm/fuseaction/Bible.show


So, has the Creator in his infinite wisdom made these errors, or has it been mans doing?

Man, why are you getting worked up about some trivial shit 7 years or 3? Some Jewish scribe may have recorded it wrong or somthing, don't be a dumbass. LOL

[Adz4eva]

Man, why are you getting worked up about some trivial shit 7 years or 3? Some Jewish scribe may have recorded it wrong or somthing, don't be a dumbass. LOL

Trivial shit? the Bible?

LOL you just buried yourself with that one gggg-man :p

[Adz4eva]

I actually thought you were gonna come back with the reply 'that aint the real bible', God knows how many different books/versions there are, everytime I quote from the bible all I hear is... nope that bit isnt the proper bible :neutral:

But please lets not refer to it as 'trivial shit', everything was going ok upto now.

[ggggunit]

...muslims regard Jesus PBUH as one of the mightiest messengers of God, and we bow down in worship to the same God that Jesus use to pray too (as mentioned so many times in the Bible), muslims believe in the Oneness of God that Jesus taught, and we believe in his miraculous birth. Christians however, say that Jesus was part of a trinity and the son of God, and he was crucified.

"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ, Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them." Quran 4:156-159

Everything that the quran says regarding Jesus is a lie. Mohammed just made that stuff up so that he could have some basis upon which to promote his religion over Christianity. Mohammed was no prophet of God, he was just a powerhungry warlord. His primary concern was conquering Mecca and all the Arab tribes so he could make himself wealthy and make his name great. His successors carried on in his footsteps waging brutal wars of conquest everwhere from Modern Day portugol to Punjab in India. Mohammed was a false prophet and its so funny that the only problems that you can find in the bible is where in one verse the chronicaler said it was 3 years and in the other verse the chronicaler said it was 7. Get a life

The quran is filled with contradictions from page to page, it is in a much worse state. Tell me, what did your God create Adam from?

It is he who has created man from water
-- Sura 25:54
And God has created every living creature from water.
-- Sura 24:45

We created man from sounding clay,
from mud moulded into shape.
-- Sura 15:26

Amongst his signs is this,
that he created you from dust.
-- Sura 30:20


Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
huh?

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things," (2:256).
"And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith," (9:3).
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful," (9:5).
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued," (9:29).


Are Allah's decrees changed or not?

"Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers," (6:34).
"The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all, (6:115).
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?" (2:106).
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not," (16:101).

there's no need to continue this. Mohammed just made up his *stuff* as he went along and since he was illiterate he couldnt write down what he said before so sometimes his "revelations" ended up conflicting withe eachother.

[ggggunit]

I actually thought you were gonna come back with the reply 'that aint the real bible', God knows how many different books/versions there are, everytime I quote from the bible all I hear is... nope that bit isnt the proper bible :neutral:

But please lets not refer to it as 'trivial shit', everything was going ok upto now.

lol, your funny. the bible is not the quran that we can deny it when somthing from it looks bad. Your quran has many more egregious contradictions and faults. Don't point fingers when you live in a glass house my friend :p :wavey:

[Adz4eva]

Before I reply, can you try and control your mouth and watch what you say about other peoples religions. Do you see anyone else referring to the Bible as bullshit? This thread has remained clean up til now, dont ruin it with your ignorant remarks.

[ggggunit]

Before I reply, can you try and control your mouth and watch what you say about other peoples religions. Do you see anyone else referring to the Bible as bullshit? This thread has remained clean up til now, dont ruin it with your ignorant remarks.

I didn't say that the quran was bullshit entirely, I said that some of the thing's said in it about Jesus were bullshit. I'm sorry if you took it wrong.

[Adz4eva]

I didn't say that the quran was bullshit entirely, I said that some of the thing's said in it about Jesus were bullshit. I'm sorry if you took it wrong.

Im not taking anything wrong, I just dont like it when people have to resort to slandering other religions to try get their point across.

[ggggunit]

Im not taking anything wrong, I just dont like it when people have to resort to slandering other religions to try get their point across.

anyway, i gotta run man

later :wavey:

[Adz4eva]

Everything that the quran says regarding Jesus is a lie. Mohammed just made that stuff up so that he could have some basis upon which to promote his religion over Christianity. Mohammed was no prophet of God, he was just a powerhungry warlord. His primary concern was conquering Mecca and all the Arab tribes so he could make himself wealthy and make his name great. His successors carried on in his footsteps waging brutal wars of conquest everwhere from Modern Day portugol to Punjab in India.

The Quran says Jesus PBUH was born miraculously without any male intervention, is that a lie? It says his mother was a righteous woman, is that a lie? It says he spoke to people in his infancy and was able to perform miracles, is this a lie?

Muhammed PBUH was a prophet without doubt, but obviously this is something we disagree on. We both accept that we will find out the truth of things after death.


Mohammed was a false prophet and its so funny that the only problems that you can find in the bible is where in one verse the chronicaler said it was 3 years and in the other verse the chronicaler said it was 7.

Did you read what I posted, I posted 2 things which I wanted you to clarify and could have continued


Get a life

Why not grow a brain? Bit pointless these little insults arent they?


The quran is filled with contradictions from page to page, it is in a much worse state. Tell me, what did your God create Adam from?

If you have some time, please read:

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=102



Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?
huh?

Are Allah's decrees changed or not?

there's no need to continue this. Mohammed just made up his *stuff* as he went along and since he was illiterate he couldnt write down what he said before so sometimes his "revelations" ended up conflicting withe eachother.

I really do urge you to remove all the prejudice and hatred from your heart, and read the Quran from cover to cover, with an open mind. There are no different versions or updates or new editions, its just one book, 114 chapters, and only when you read it ALL will you see just how highly the prophet Jesus PBUH is regarded.

Read the story of a former christian minister...

http://www.famousmuslims.com/Yusuf%20Estes.htm

Ultimately we both believe we will face God one day, and account for ourselves, God gave us both a brain so ignorance will be no excuse on that, laterz :wavey:

[Muslima786]

the concept of Trinity or the word itself doesnt even exist in the Bible. The first groups of Christianity Ebonites, the Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians, and the Hypisistarians were oblivious of the Trinity doctrine. Through a series of mistranslations, alterations, and deception the Trinity doctrine was implemented by the Catholic Church. before the establishement of a standard christian theology by the catholic church, every church had its own scriptures and doctrine.

some verses from the Bible that lie in direct contradiction to the Trinity doctrine

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 6:12)"

[Adz4eva]

the concept of Trinity or the word itself doesnt even exist in the Bible. The first groups of Christianity Ebonites, the Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians, and the Hypisistarians were oblivious of the Trinity doctrine. Through a series of mistranslations, alterations, and deception the Trinity doctrine was implemented by the Catholic Church. before the establishement of a standard christian theology by the catholic church, every church had its own scriptures and doctrine.

some verses from the Bible that lie in direct contradiction to the Trinity doctrine

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 6:12)"

Cant really get any more clearer then that, thanks for them.

[Muslima786]

Cant really get any more clearer then that, thanks for them.
welcome :)

[sharthap]

I mean think about it - God taking form? That's introducing all sorts of logical inconsistencies. .

God can do WHATEVER He wants.

Period.

[sharthap]

Lets stops bitching. We all believe that we're right. Only one way to find out, and thats on judgement day. We'll all know the truth soon enough.

what if one day, God changes his mind, and there is NO judgement day? :sarb:

[Muslima786]

what if one day, God changes his mind, and there is NO judgement day? :sarb:
ur screwed either way :P

[adren@line]

So on judgment day, will there be like, a raffle?

Will there be a carnival?
free popcorn?

[sharthap]

ur screwed either way :P

not at all.

you see i have the pleasure to say that i've lived my life without the constant fear of the unknown....without making the afterlife the sole focus of my existance....and without pushing something as glorious as life into the back seat due to my obsession with the (unknown) hereafter.

:dance3:

[sharthap]

So on judgment day, will there be like, a raffle?

Will there be a carnival?
free popcorn?

i tell you what, its gonna take a heck of a lot of time....with all those souls waiting in line for their turn.

i wonder if the lawyers are going to be able to pull off pursuading God in their favor.

[ggggunit]

the concept of Trinity or the word itself doesnt even exist in the Bible. The first groups of Christianity Ebonites, the Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Capocratians, and the Hypisistarians were oblivious of the Trinity doctrine. Through a series of mistranslations, alterations, and deception the Trinity doctrine was implemented by the Catholic Church. before the establishement of a standard christian theology by the catholic church, every church had its own scriptures and doctrine.
Wrong, you are incorrect. Don't sit here acting like you are some authorit of Christian history. There were Bishops that oversaw churches long before the establishment of the Catholic church. The Bishops set the theology in their individual groups of churches before the catholic church was established and the Bishop of Rome was made patriarch.

some verses from the Bible that lie in direct contradiction to the Trinity doctrine
LOl, lets see this.


"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

There is more to this verse than you can percieve from the NIV translation. The word translated as "Lord" from the Greek is a singular-plural word (a word that labels one colective), there is no contradiction at all, it would take a knowledge of the language of the original texts and what the word's mean in that context for you to fully understand what Jesus meant. I notice that you muslims have a habit of pulling fragments out of sentences and using them to prove your ideas, this is foolishness and proves nothing. Stop pulling crap off of sites woman.

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? (Mark 10:17) And Jesus said unto him,""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

I thought that the bible was corrupted and changed? hmm... it seems that the bible only has authority in muslims' eyes when muslims like what it says :rolleyes:

Jesus had to tread a fine line because of the political climate of the time. He was despised by the Jewish Religious establishment and saying anything about his divinity invited trouble, He was infact condemned to death for blasphemy by the Jewish Priests because he said that God was his father. He was most likely testing the man also.

Stop cutting and pasting BS off sites.



John 14:28 Jesus said "My Father (GOD) is greater than I"

How does that contradict the trinity?

Matthew 24:36 Jesus said "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

How does that contradict the trinity?

One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God. (From the NIV Bible, Luke 6:12)"

How does that contradict the trinity?

Oh look at this educated muslim scholar cuting and pasting things of the sites and she doesn't even have the brain to explain how they support her argument SMH at this ****:no:

[ggggunit]

The Quran says Jesus PBUH was born miraculously without any male intervention, is that a lie? It says his mother was a righteous woman, is that a lie? It says he spoke to people in his infancy and was able to perform miracles, is this a lie?

Muhammed PBUH was a prophet without doubt, but obviously this is something we disagree on. We both accept that we will find out the truth of things after death.



Did you read what I posted, I posted 2 things which I wanted you to clarify and could have continued



Why not grow a brain? Bit pointless these little insults arent they?



If you have some time, please read:

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=102




I really do urge you to remove all the prejudice and hatred from your heart, and read the Quran from cover to cover, with an open mind. There are no different versions or updates or new editions, its just one book, 114 chapters, and only when you read it ALL will you see just how highly the prophet Jesus PBUH is regarded.

Read the story of a former christian minister...

http://www.famousmuslims.com/Yusuf%20Estes.htm

Ultimately we both believe we will face God one day, and account for ourselves, God gave us both a brain so ignorance will be no excuse on that, laterz :wavey:

When you gonna adress the stuff i poste man? you gotta man up dude!

[bill]

God can do WHATEVER He wants.

Period.

If I wanted to talk with an idiot I would have gone to the local mental institute, retard. It's exactly this kind of talk which lead me to believe you in fact are some ammateur 'free thinking'. Read up on some actual philosophy before you start openning that ill-educated mouth (fingers) of yours. Dumbass.

You misunderstood, i should have punctuated it properly, maybe you would understand better, i was trying to convey that "God interacts with the universe, which he created, in 3 manifestations (the three persons of the trinity)" Sorry for the confusion.

Alright. You're saying god interacts with the universe in 3 different ways right? I just want to make sure we're both clear what we're talking about before we proceed.

[Sw33tn3zZ]

xmaS?
or xmas eve :sarb:

[sharthap]

If I wanted to talk with an idiot I would have gone to the local mental institute, retard. It's exactly this kind of talk which lead me to believe you in fact are some ammateur 'free thinking'. Read up on some actual philosophy before you start openning that ill-educated mouth (fingers) of yours. Dumbass.


my, such fury.

i was only saying what you said :(

[Muslima786]

Wrong, you are incorrect. Don't sit here acting like you are some authorit of Christian history. There were Bishops that oversaw churches long before the establishment of the Catholic church. The Bishops set the theology in their individual groups of churches before the catholic church was established and the Bishop of Rome was made patriarch.

LOL...right what a load of crap...The new testament itself is comprised of 30 plus books of the Cannon out of 24,000 epistles, by Constantine and his church. many of these epistles were banned such as Peter's apocalypse (which was highly regarded as spirtually inspired but was nonetheless banned). the first council convened to set today's standard christian theology. Most early individual churches were persecuted for their differing views. Many unitarian churches to this day are persecuted.



There is more to this verse than you can percieve from the NIV translation. The word translated as "Lord" from the Greek is a singular-plural word (a word that labels one colective), there is no contradiction at all, it would take a knowledge of the language of the original texts and what the word's mean in that context for you to fully understand what Jesus meant. I notice that you muslims have a habit of pulling fragments out of sentences and using them to prove your ideas, this is foolishness and proves nothing. Stop pulling crap off of sites woman.

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? (Mark 10:17) And Jesus said unto him,

lol lets not discuss linguistics here...the only people guilty of misinterpretations and mistranslations is the Christian Church. lol where are you getting ur sources from... Satan was called "God (same word used for Jesus in Greek)" in Corinthians 4:4 (check the verse in the Bible). the word Lord is also found in the Hebrew manuscripts...Jesus preached in Aramaic (those scriptures are lost) the hebrew word used is Yahweh (a shortened word for God such as Mike for Micheal) to address God Almighty which is not plural. The hebrew word for God El plural is elohim. The God title was given to many in the Jewish traditions and the old testament. But all these God titles differed from the exclusive title given to the Almighty God. There is not a single Verse in the New Testament where Jesus was called directly or named directly "Mighty God" or "God". Thus the title of Son of God given to Jesus is merely a title not a objective literal statement. Many others were called the Sons of God in the bible. Godly titles were given to many in the Old jewish culture but Jesus's Godly title was exaggerated and hence the birth of Trinity.
1- Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn
2- Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

note- Jesus was also called son of Man... the trinitarian christians also play dirty tricks by capitalizing "G" in gods.




I thought that the bible was corrupted and changed? hmm... it seems that the bible only has authority in muslims' eyes when muslims like what it says :rolleyes:

point im making- bible is full of contradictions, therefor nullifying the Trinity concept.

Jesus had to tread a fine line because of the political climate of the time. He was despised by the Jewish Religious establishment and saying anything about his divinity invited trouble, He was infact condemned to death for blasphemy by the Jewish Priests because he said that God was his father. He was most likely testing the man also.

Lolz right.

Stop cutting and pasting BS off sites.
those are verses from the Bible.





How does that contradict the trinity?

lol how does that contradict the trinity?...Jesus praying to God...Jesus putting God on a higher ground then him shows a distinction between God and Jesus therefor making the possibility of them being conjoined into a singular entity comprised of plural entities, impossible. Jesus never claimed to be God, there in no absolute concrete base for Trinity.

Oh look at this educated muslim scholar cuting and pasting things of the sites and she doesn't even have the brain to explain how they support her argument SMH at this ****:no:
lol all i cut and paste are verses from your own bible

[adren@line]

boobies.

[Muslima786]

Gunit, I see you conveniently neglected to address the early groups of christians that Muslima mentioned. You just brushed her off as "incorrect" on absolutely no basis whatsoever? Why?
typical trinitarian apologist

[adren@line]

:) :D

[Muslima786]

:) :D
3 in 1 :lol:

[Muslima786]

How many times do christians have to get laced in these debates before they realize that they'll never win? Damn, I remember I was going to war with the trinitarian goon squad like 6 months ago, but noooooo, they just have to persist...

Christians worship idols, make graven images, believe in a form of human sacrafice as a pinnacle of their faith, adopt pagan practices/holidays, and completely disregard all of the laws that went before them just because some crackpot claims that he was knocked off of his horse by some spook....and before you come back with "I can say the same thing about Muhammad(saw)!!!!," it's quite obvious that when weighed against history and common sense, Islaam is the way of life that most closely resembles that of the Prophets. If Jesus(as) came back today, do you think he would have more in common with christians, or muslims? No christian can honestly respond to that question without tears welling up in his/her eyes, and Muslims already know the answer because we are looking forward to that day.

Just think...all those versions of the Bible and a HOMOSEXUAL authored the most popular one (King James). What a joke...
the worst is when they try to convert you :no:

[adren@line]

the worst is when they try to convert you :no:

bahahahahhahaha!!

Thats classic coming from a Muslim.

:)

[chakdephute]

to adren@line: why do have the US flag, the Indian flag, and the Israeli flag all together in your sig? Because the Indians are becoming doctors in the US and Jews are becoming lawyers in the US?

[chakdephute]

the worst is when they try to convert you :no:

You know how much grief I've got for being Sikh from Muslims and being a non-believer from Christians?

[adren@line]

How many times do christians have to get laced in these debates before they realize that they'll never win? Damn, I remember I was going to war with the trinitarian goon squad like 6 months ago, but noooooo, they just have to persist...

Christians worship idols, make graven images, believe in a form of human sacrafice as a pinnacle of their faith, adopt pagan practices/holidays, and completely disregard all of the laws that went before them just because some crackpot claims that he was knocked off of his horse by some spook....and before you come back with "I can say the same thing about Muhammad(saw)!!!!," it's quite obvious that when weighed against history and common sense, Islaam is the way of life that most closely resembles that of the Prophets. If Jesus(as) came back today, do you think he would have more in common with christians, or muslims? No christian can honestly respond to that question without tears welling up in his/her eyes, and Muslims already know the answer because we are looking forward to that day.

Just think...all those versions of the Bible and a HOMOSEXUAL authored the most popular one (King James). What a joke...


Jesus would associate with Christians.

Why?

How many Christians have run planes into buildings *in the name of Christianity*?

How many have blown up embassies * * ?

How many have suicide bombed restaurants, school busess, etc * * ?

How many Christians are killing other Christians * * ?

On paper you may think you "win", but in reality as based on the actions of the adherents of each religion, you loose.


:dance3:

[adren@line]

to adren@line: why do have the US flag, the Indian flag, and the Israeli flag all together in your sig? Because the Indians are becoming doctors in the US and Jews are becoming lawyers in the US?

nope.

[ggggunit]

GGGunit, Jesus never, ever taught a trinity doctrine to his disciples. Muslims don't have to try and prove to you that Jesus didn't teach the trinity, rather, the burden lies upon CHRISTIANS to prove that he did...and they never can.

If Jesus was God then who did he pray to in the Garden of Gethsemane? Himself?

If Jesus was God who did he cry out to on the cross in the (fictional) crucifixion story? Himself?

If Jesus is God how can he sit at "the right hand of the father?"

All of this nonsense was completely alien to early christians like the ebionites who, similar to the muslim view, saw Jesus as nothing more than a prophet bearing a divine truth. Present-day Christianity revolves around the teachings of Paul (saul of tarsus), a man who lived a good amount of years after Jesus left this earth, and a man who was famous for PERSECUTING christians.

As for the Bible, any scholar will tell you that it has been tampered with throughout the years, and that christianity in its present form is nowhere NEAR what Jesus or his disciples practiced. These are just facts. You can have faith in whatever you want, but you can't change what's real.

Oh My God you missed a "G"(just kidding), but seriouisly, what i can not understand is why no muslim knows anything about Christianity other than the propoganda they read on websites and the bullshit they hear from certain immams and teachers. The doctrine of the Trinity has basis in the Old testament as well as the new. I don't have to prove anything to anyone, be they muslim, Christian, Hindu or whatever. Google the trinity and see what verses in the bible provide a basis for it, and also find verses that contradict it if you like (i'm asking you to be unbiased and bring both here) and we will discuss them. I don't have time to get worked up over propoganda and bs. Jesus didn't use the Word trinity or anything you are correct, trinity is just the theological word that the Christian Bishops came up with at the Council of Nicea to describe the nature of God as they understood it from the bible. Just look up the verses that support and the verses that contradict the trinity and we'll discuss it like 2 mature men.

and please, in the future, dont come with the bullshit about "any biblical scholar...blah....blah" stuff like that holds no water. Thats just Bs out yo ass, and is just an expression of your personal opinion and you're trying to butress its authority by saying "any scholar" name one reputable scholar, then we'll talk.

thanks :wavey:

[chakdephute]

nope.

:sarb:

[ggggunit]

Gunit, I see you conveniently neglected to address the early groups of christians that Muslima mentioned. You just brushed her off as "incorrect" on absolutely no basis whatsoever? Why?


What? its not even worth adressing. There were fringe groups,and apostate Christians in the early days just like there are now. Please don't point to one insignificant group and hold them up as an examplar. Maybe i'll pick out the Sufis or the Ahmadis and say how their tennants are superior to your sunni beliefs

[Muslima786]

Jesus would associate with Christians.

Why?

How many Christians have run planes into buildings *in the name of Christianity*?

How many have blown up embassies * * ?

How many have suicide bombed restaurants, school busess, etc * * ?

How many Christians are killing other Christians * * ?

On paper you may think you "win", but in reality as based on the actions of the adherents of each religion, you loose


:dance3:

christians have attacked nations under false pretenses shedding the blood of innocent civilians

christians have dropped a-bombs on civilian populations

christians have stolen resources from around the world, erected greedy corporations and subjected many to abject poverty

christians have been involved in colonizations, imperialism and countless wars.

christians were involved in a holocaust that killed over 12 million people

christians were involved and sanctioned the Crusades.

christians have been involved in countless civil wars...the american civil war

Jesus would def. choose us

:dance3:

[Muslima786]

What? its not even worth adressing. There were fringe groups,and apostate Christians in the early days just like there are now. Please don't point to one insignificant group and hold them up as an examplar. Maybe i'll pick out the Sufis or the Ahmadis and say how their tennants are superior to your sunni beliefs

the apostate christian groups theology is supported by the bible while standard christian theology is not

the Sunni beliefs are sanctioned by the Quran and Sunnah while Ahmadis and other sects belief's are not

clear difference there buddy

[adren@line]

christians have have attacked nations under false pretenses shedding the blood of innocent civilians

so have Muslims.

christians have dropped a-bombs on civilian populations
Saddam gassed Iran.

same shit.

(and dont give me that crap where the US gave Saddam weapons (which they didnt, just materials)
.
If a guy buys a gun at walmart and shoots someone, its the guy's fault.
Not walmarts.


christians have stolen resources from around the world, erected greedy corporations and subjected many to abject poverty


dont get me started on the greedy Arabs and their oil, or the fact that all of these rich-ass Arabs ignore the Palestinians and their Muslim "brothers" in Africa.



christians have been involved in colonizations, imperialism and countless wars.

christians were involved in a holocaust that killed over 12 million people

again, Muslims haev done the same shit.

christians were involved and sanctioned the Crusades.
..which was a response to the illegitimate Muslim presence in Europe.
They really had no business in Spain.

christians have been involved in countless civil wars...the american civil war

Jesus would def. choose us

but they dont fight with each other anymore.

Muslims still do.

[ggggunit]

Wrong, you are incorrect. Don't sit here acting like you are some authorit of Christian history. There were Bishops that oversaw churches long before the establishment of the Catholic church. The Bishops set the theology in their individual groups of churches before the catholic church was established and the Bishop of Rome was made patriarch.

LOL...right what a load of crap...The new testament itself is comprised of 30 plus books of the Cannon out of 24,000 epistles, by Constantine and his church. many of these epistles were banned such as Peter's apocalypse (which was highly regarded as spirtually inspired but was nonetheless banned). the first council convened to set today's standard christian theology. Most early individual churches were persecuted for their differing views. Many unitarian churches to this day are persecuted.

Mooslimah, what are you taking about? the New testament has more than 30 books, and there were not 24000 epistles, what kind of Hashish you be smoking? 24000 lol, where do you get these numbers from? come on? Most early individual churches were persecuted for differeng views? by whom? The Roman govt persecuted christians in the 200+years prior to Contstantine's Edict of Tolerance. The early doctrines of the Roman sanctioned church were formed at Councils like Nicea on the consensus of hundreds of Christian bishops, the only people who were persecuted were those fringe groups that embraced heretical ideas, not most churches you ignoramous. You know so little about your own Islamic history and even less about Christian history so don't come with your Bullls*** please :no:

Do you even know what a Unitarian church is you ignoramous? Persecuted by whom? The Unitarian church is basically and Agnostic/Deist outfit, it has nothing to do with Christianity and its Mainly in the U.S. and I don't think the U.S. govt is in the business of persecuting religions *SMH at this fool* get your ignoran ass outta here.



There is more to this verse than you can percieve from the NIV translation. The word translated as "Lord" from the Greek is a singular-plural word (a word that labels one colective), there is no contradiction at all, it would take a knowledge of the language of the original texts and what the word's mean in that context for you to fully understand what Jesus meant. I notice that you muslims have a habit of pulling fragments out of sentences and using them to prove your ideas, this is foolishness and proves nothing. Stop pulling crap off of sites woman.

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? (Mark 10:17) And Jesus said unto him,

lol lets not discuss linguistics here...the only people guilty of misinterpretations and mistranslations is the Christian Church. lol where are you getting ur sources from... Satan was called "God (same word used for Jesus in Greek)" in Corinthians 4:4 (check the verse in the Bible). the word Lord is also found in the Hebrew manuscripts...Jesus preached in Aramaic (those scriptures are lost) the hebrew word used is Yahweh (a shortened word for God such as Mike for Micheal) to address God Almighty which is not plural. The hebrew word for God El plural is elohim. The God title was given to many in the Jewish traditions and the old testament. But all these God titles differed from the exclusive title given to the Almighty God. There is not a single Verse in the New Testament where Jesus was called directly or named directly "Mighty God" or "God". Thus the title of Son of God given to Jesus is merely a title not a objective literal statement. Many others were called the Sons of God in the bible. Godly titles were given to many in the Old jewish culture but Jesus's Godly title was exaggerated and hence the birth of Trinity.
1- Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn
2- Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

note- Jesus was also called son of Man... the trinitarian christians also play dirty tricks by capitalizing "G" in gods.




I thought that the bible was corrupted and changed? hmm... it seems that the bible only has authority in muslims' eyes when muslims like what it says :rolleyes:

point im making- bible is full of contradictions, therefor nullifying the Trinity concept.

Jesus had to tread a fine line because of the political climate of the time. He was despised by the Jewish Religious establishment and saying anything about his divinity invited trouble, He was infact condemned to death for blasphemy by the Jewish Priests because he said that God was his father. He was most likely testing the man also.

Lolz right.

Stop cutting and pasting BS off sites.
those are verses from the Bible.





How does that contradict the trinity?

lol how does that contradict the trinity?...Jesus praying to God...Jesus putting God on a higher ground then him shows a distinction between God and Jesus therefor making the possibility of them being conjoined into a singular entity comprised of plural entities, impossible. Jesus never claimed to be God, there in no absolute concrete base for Trinity.

Oh look at this educated muslim scholar cuting and pasting things of the sites and she doesn't even have the brain to explain how they support her argument SMH at this ****:no:
lol all i cut and paste are verses from your own bible

You guys are so shitty, you're not even worth speaking too. forget this crap, We will all see on the judgment day, when you bow down on both knees and confess your error and your blasphemies against God.

peace :wavey:

[Muslima786]

Mooslimah, what are you taking about? the New testament has more than 30 books, and there were not 24000 epistles, what kind of Hashish you be smoking? 24000 lol, where do you get these numbers from? come on? Most early individual churches were persecuted for differeng views? by whom? The Roman govt persecuted christians in the 200+years prior to Contstantine's Edict of Tolerance. The early doctrines of the Roman sanctioned church were formed at Councils like Nicea on the consensus of hundreds of Christian bishops, the only people who were persecuted were those fringe groups that embraced heretical ideas, not most churches you ignoramous. You know so little about your own Islamic history and even less about Christian history so don't come with your Bullls*** please :no:

Do you even know what a Unitarian church is you ignoramous? Persecuted by whom? The Unitarian church is basically and Agnostic/Deist outfit, it has nothing to do with Christianity and its Mainly in the U.S. and I don't think the U.S. govt is in the business of persecuting religions *SMH at this fool* get your ignoran ass outta here.







You guys are so shitty, you're not even worth speaking too. forget this crap, We will all see on the judgment day, when you bow down on both knees and confess your error and your blasphemies against God.

peace :wavey:
lolz see you on judgement Day i guess :wavey:

[Muslima786]

so have Muslims.

when where how :P

Saddam gassed Iran.

same shit.

(and dont give me that crap where the US gave Saddam weapons (which they didnt, just materials)
.
If a guy buys a gun at walmart and shoots someone, its the guy's fault.
Not walmarts.

lawlz love ur analogy there. i guess walmart gives guns to people to shoot other humans because the US gave Saddam weapons in order for them to be used on people not to gass chickens and bears.




dont get me started on the greedy Arabs and their oil, or the fact that all of these rich-ass Arabs ignore the Palestinians and their Muslim "brothers" in Africa.

lol greedy Arabs...its their oil buddy...its the Us whose greedy...ur latter statement is right though...most Arab nations are corrupted.




again, Muslims haev done the same shit.


..which was a response to the illegitimate Muslim presence in Europe.
They really had no business in Spain.

lol right...and the Iraq invasion is legitmate right...Muslims expanded Spain and gave civil liberties to everyone so it was a legitmate empire alright.


but they dont fight with each other anymore.

Muslims still do.

haha right take a look in your own backyard.. KKK et al



christians still have more blood on their hands then Muslims do...so Jesus would choose us.


:dance:

[ggggunit]

christians were involved and sanctioned the Crusades.

Muslims deserved the Crusades. It wasn't liek the muslims were just sitting around in the middle east peacefully minding their own business. No! Your Caliph Umar started the islamic agression against the Christian world when He attacked the byzantine empire. He destroyed a Byzantine Army at Damascus and siezed Control of Palestine and Syria. the people of Jerusalem surrenderd the city to him because they knew of the islamic reputation for brutality and attrocities against those who resisted them, and since Umar destroyed the Byzantine Army there would be no one to help them. The Crusades was a war to simply recover this lost territory.

Lets not forget the Innumerable JIHHADDDDDs that the moose-lems have been involved in. Mohammed started the first Jihadddddddd against the City of Mecca. Then the powerhungry Warlord-Dictator waged a war to subjugate all the neighboring Arab tribes through direct military conquest or intimidation. His sucessors Waged unprovoked Jihaddds agains the Christians in Syria and Palestine. They attacked and Destroyed the Sassadin Empire (The Persian Zoroastrian empire) and nearly destroyed the whole zoroastrian religion. They commited the same attrocites when they entered Egypt an North Africa killing and forcefully converting Christians and "IDOLATERS" there also, and people only surrendered because of the muslim reputation for brutality. They Attacked Christians again withough provocation in Spain and Portugol, They even tried to Push their way into france but Charlemagne stopped them at the city of Tours.

Lets not forget the countless islamic Jihhaddddddd campaings in India either.

Islam is the most foul, mother of violence that the Earth has ever seen.


christians have been involved in countless civil wars...the american civil war

:dance3

Muslims have been involved in countless civil wars (India Pakistan(muslim separatist killing hindus), Pakistan Bangladesh (mooselums killing mooslums), Iraq(mooselums killing mooslums AGAIN), Lebanon (muslims killing Christians for no reason), Somalia(mooselums killing mooslums), Sudan (mooselums killing mooslums), just to name a few


:wavey:

[ggggunit]

christians still have more blood on their hands then Muslims do...so Jesus would choose us.


:dance:


Thats why i say this woman is an ignorant fool. She is ignoran of her own history and wants to lecture me about mine. **SMH at this dumb b******* More people have been killed an conquered in the name of Islam than any other religion. Everywhere from Portugol to Punjab, islam was introduced through brutal violence and military conquest. So go read a fucking book and stop spewing bullshit. No wonder muslims are dominated by the whole world, to dumb to do anyting constructive.

Muslims, please educate your women!!! :mad:

[Muslima786]

Muslims deserved the Crusades. It wasn't liek the muslims were just sitting around in the middle east peacefully minding their own business. No! Your Caliph Umar started the islamic agression against the Christian world when He attacked the byzantine empire. He destroyed a Byzantine Army at Damascus and siezed Control of Palestine and Syria. the people of Jerusalem surrenderd the city to him because they knew of the islamic reputation for brutality and attrocities against those who resisted them, and since Umar destroyed the Byzantine Army there would be no one to help them. The Crusades was a war to simply recover this lost territory.

Lets not forget the Innumerable JIHHADDDDDs that the moose-lems have been involved in. Mohammed started the first Jihadddddddd against the City of Mecca. Then the powerhungry Warlord-Dictator waged a war to subjugate all the neighboring Arab tribes through direct military conquest or intimidation. His sucessors Waged unprovoked Jihaddds agains the Christians in Syria and Palestine. They attacked and Destroyed the Sassadin Empire (The Persian Zoroastrian empire) and nearly destroyed the whole zoroastrian religion. They commited the same attrocites when they entered Egypt an North Africa killing and forcefully converting Christians and "IDOLATERS" there also, and people only surrendered because of the muslim reputation for brutality. They Attacked Christians again withough provocation in Spain and Portugol, They even tried to Push their way into france but Charlemagne stopped them at the city of Tours.

Lets not forget the countless islamic Jihhaddddddd campaings in India either.

Islam is the most foul, mother of violence that the Earth has ever seen.




Muslims have been involved in countless civil wars (India Pakistan(muslim separatist killing hindus), Pakistan Bangladesh (mooselums killing mooslums), Iraq(mooselums killing mooslums AGAIN), Lebanon (muslims killing Christians for no reason), Somalia(mooselums killing mooslums), Sudan (mooselums killing mooslums), just to name a few


:wavey:
:wavey: <- only thing worth replying to so :wavey:

[Muslima786]

Thats why i say this woman is an ignorant fool. She is ignoran of her own history and wants to lecture me about mine. **SMH at this dumb b******* More people have been killed an conquered in the name of Islam than any other religion. Everywhere from Portugol to Punjab, islam was introduced through brutal violence and military conquest. So go read a fucking book and stop spewing bullshit. No wonder muslims are dominated by the whole world, to dumb to do anyting constructive.

Muslims, please educate your women!!! :mad:
lolz.

[adren@line]

lol .

weaksauce.

when where how :P

lol.

Pointing out specifics takes too much time.

Plus you are probably well aware of your own Islamic history, and if youre not, too bad.

lawlz love ur analogy there. i guess walmart gives guns to people to shoot other humans because the US gave Saddam weapons in order for them to be used on people not to gass chickens and bears.

lol.

Guns are meant to kill "things", whether that be for sport, for pleasure, or for sinister reasons.

The fact is that no one forced Saddam to do anything. He did what he wanted when he wanted.

He has to get his "stuff" from somewhere. Same sh*t how China/Russia supplies all of those weapons to Pakistan so they could kill thousands of their "Muslim bros" in Bangladesh.

Is it Russias fault?

NOPE.

lol greedy Arabs...its their oil buddy...its the Us whose greedy...ur latter statement is right though...most Arab nations are corrupted.

US is greedy.
So are corporations, the same corporations that made your Honda civic and that computer your using.

But remember, Arabs are greedy too.

The rest of the Muslim population isnt simply because they dont have the capacity to be greedy.

They are too backwards.
When (and if) they join the developing/first world, they will experience all of the joys of capitalism :)


lol right...and the Iraq invasion is legitmate right...Muslims expanded Spain and gave civil liberties to everyone so it was a legitmate empire alright.

lol @ legitimate empire.

The Europeans had every right to beat Muslim ass in Europe.
They were an unwanted pest.

Its up to the Europeans as to which empire is legitimate on their turf, not foreign Muslims.

haha right take a look in your own backyard.. KKK et al



the KKK have no power.
none.
zip.
nothing.

they havent done anything significant in years.
I would know, I grew up in the south.

My child hood buddies grandad was in the KKK (wierd, I know).

christians still have more blood on their hands then Muslims do...so Jesus would choose us.

lol.

I dont even care who Jesus would choose, but your are implying that Muslims are better than Christians, and that is simply false.

Muslims are majority third-worlders.

Third-world = cesspool of corruption, murder, rape, etc, etc, etc, blah blah blah.

Christians have it the best. They have it better than Hindus (I can admit it).

I find it very amusing that you cannot admit that overall, Christians are far more sane-minded and peacefull than Muslims.

[sharthap]

lolz see you on judgement Day i guess :wavey:

judgement day? the day that the machines delare war against the humans?

:wavey:

[typeOnegative]

judgement day? the day that the machines delare war against the humans?

:wavey:
No it is the day we all get free beer and free passes to the Ms universe contest.

[bill]

No it is the day we all get free beer and free passes to the Ms universe contest.

THATS HARAM!

[Muslima786]

lol .

weaksauce.


lol.

Pointing out specifics takes too much time.

Plus you are probably well aware of your own Islamic history, and if youre not, too bad.



lol.

Guns are meant to kill "things", whether that be for sport, for pleasure, or for sinister reasons.

The fact is that no one forced Saddam to do anything. He did what he wanted when he wanted.

He has to get his "stuff" from somewhere. Same sh*t how China/Russia supplies all of those weapons to Pakistan so they could kill thousands of their "Muslim bros" in Bangladesh.

Is it Russias fault?

NOPE.



US is greedy.
So are corporations, the same corporations that made your Honda civic and that computer your using.

But remember, Arabs are greedy too.

The rest of the Muslim population isnt simply because they dont have the capacity to be greedy.

They are too backwards.
When (and if) they join the developing/first world, they will experience all of the joys of capitalism :)


lol @ legitimate empire.

The Europeans had every right to beat Muslim ass in Europe.
They were an unwanted pest.

Its up to the Europeans as to which empire is legitimate on their turf, not foreign Muslims.



the KKK have no power.
none.
zip.
nothing.

they havent done anything significant in years.
I would know, I grew up in the south.

My child hood buddies grandad was in the KKK (wierd, I know).



lol.

I dont even care who Jesus would choose, but your are implying that Muslims are better than Christians, and that is simply false.

Muslims are majority third-worlders.

Third-world = cesspool of corruption, murder, rape, etc, etc, etc, blah blah blah.

Christians have it the best. They have it better than Hindus (I can admit it).

I find it very amusing that you cannot admit that overall, Christians are far more sane-minded and peacefull than Muslims.
Muslims are majority third-worlders.

lOleeeerz

[adren@line]

Muslims are majority third-worlders.

lOleeeerz

lol.

I shouldve known better.

:mad: :sarb:

[typeOnegative]

THATS HARAM!
So what? I guess there will be a general relaxation in rules on the last day. Come on man! So many restrictions. We will definitely get a break.

[ggggunit]

:wavey: <- only thing worth replying to so :wavey:
I expect nothing better of such an ignoramous

[urbanmix786]

^ ^ ^ (keeping to the above argument) was browsing; thought I'd copy and post a reply from one of my earlier posts to a similar thread.

Who did Jesus pray to? To GOD
So why do Christians today pray and genuflect to Jesus, lols the irony u have outright defied the first commandment of God being one. Find me any I beg u any quote in the bible where the the trinity is mentioned or where it states the word Christianity, none what so ever. So why not follow Jesus's example; do what he did and obey your first commandment and only worship God, no mention of the trinity so dont invent or assume.

Jesus was just a man (a messenger) not the son of God, the fact he spoke Aramaic and had to go to school to learn Hebrew just strengthens and reinforced the idea of him being a man. U say the ‘son of God’ died willingly to save you of your sins so why did he cry out Elliah Elliah why have u forsaken me? Some will.

Jesus himself said his will is not done but the will of God Genesis 25 1. He was just a man.

In the Bible Solomon is too praised for being the Son of God he too performed miracles like Muslims believe most of the prophets did, so why is Solomon not worshiped? If u want to believe God had a son surely Adam fits the bill, he was the first man created and he had no mother or father so he has a legit claim opposed to the idea of Mary being inseminated with Gods child, astaghfuilah.


Out of curiosity I would like to know the surnames of those noble men who wrote the gospels, so far no Christian has been able to know it of the top of their head ( i.e. Mathew, Luke, Paul and Mark) who were they? non of their accounts confirm each others and are full of contradictions, incomplete and fabrications that’s why today there are over 25,000 different versions of the bible. The gospels were written thousands of years post Jesus death. I believe it was ONLY Paul that stated Jesus was the son of God but he proved himself to be a liar just look at the contradicting verses he wrote
Acts 9:3-7.....vs.....Acts 22 :6-10. So how can u take an out right liers word for it.

Now for the main course
Look at how God is described in the bible. He has nostrils and has smoke fume out of them when he is angry and rides angels to get from place to place. Is this GOD?????? The verses are below use any online translation

2 Samuel 8:9 (god has nostreals, smoke comes out this is the concept of god)

2 Samuel 22:11

The idea of their being a son of God born to a virgin was an accepted norm in that community prior to the coming of Chrsitianity. Just read up on Attis and Uhdahrehs there are 3 more but I cant remember the names, I don’t even know if I spelt those names right. You would yourself see the basics of Christianity just don't add up. Scholars have confirmed the Bible has been tamperd with also a quote in the Bible says this too. So if u can't even get the basic basic basic basics rigth what are u following?

[Princess_Ligi]

lol lets not discuss linguistics here...the only people guilty of misinterpretations and mistranslations is the Christian Church. lol where are you getting ur sources from... Satan was called "God (same word used for Jesus in Greek)" in Corinthians 4:4 (check the verse in the Bible). the word Lord is also found in the Hebrew manuscripts...Jesus preached in Aramaic (those scriptures are lost) the hebrew word used is Yahweh (a shortened word for God such as Mike for Micheal) to address God Almighty which is not plural. The hebrew word for God El plural is elohim. The God title was given to many in the Jewish traditions and the old testament. But all these God titles differed from the exclusive title given to the Almighty God. There is not a single Verse in the New Testament where Jesus was called directly or named directly "Mighty God" or "God". Thus the title of Son of God given to Jesus is merely a title not a objective literal statement. Many others were called the Sons of God in the bible. Godly titles were given to many in the Old jewish culture but Jesus's Godly title was exaggerated and hence the birth of Trinity.
1- Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn
2- Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."

note- Jesus was also called son of Man... the trinitarian christians also play dirty tricks by capitalizing "G" in gods.


point im making- bible is full of contradictions, therefor nullifying the Trinity concept.

Lolz right.
those are verses from the Bible.





How does that contradict the trinity?

lol how does that contradict the trinity?...Jesus praying to God...Jesus putting God on a higher ground then him shows a distinction between God and Jesus therefor making the possibility of them being conjoined into a singular entity comprised of plural entities, impossible. Jesus never claimed to be God, there in no absolute concrete base for Trinity.
lol all i cut and paste are verses from your own bible

lets look at this with some common sense here, in a language you may understand.

ok, jesus was God's son. when you are in trouble and you feel like the world is crashing down on you, and you have one person, who is your father, who do you talk to? prayer is communication, prayer is a way to connect to the one you trust with your life. God is my father as well, so I talk to him. Jesus, to me, is my brother. jesus also said, there is no way to the father, except through me. So, clearly they are NOT entirely seperate. so for simplicity sake: Jesus is the body, God is the mind, the holy spirit is the soul of God.

if you dont agree, then stick to your religion, but dont bash ours. i have not said anything bashing Islam, but alot of the crap you said was wrong. the old testament was written by over 30 authors, I dont know where the hell you got your other number from.

[Princess_Ligi]

^ ^ ^ (keeping to the above argument) was browsing; thought I'd copy and post a reply from one of my earlier posts to a similar thread.

Who did Jesus pray to? To GOD
So why do Christians today pray and genuflect to Jesus, lols the irony u have outright defied the first commandment of God being one. Find me any I beg u any quote in the bible where the the trinity is mentioned or where it states the word Christianity, none what so ever. So why not follow Jesus's example; do what he did and obey your first commandment and only worship God, no mention of the trinity so dont invent or assume.

Jesus was just a man (a messenger) not the son of God, the fact he spoke Aramaic and had to go to school to learn Hebrew just strengthens and reinforced the idea of him being a man. U say the ‘son of God’ died willingly to save you of your sins so why did he cry out Elliah Elliah why have u forsaken me? Some will.

Jesus himself said his will is not done but the will of God Genesis 25 1. He was just a man.

In the Bible Solomon is too praised for being the Son of God he too performed miracles like Muslims believe most of the prophets did, so why is Solomon not worshiped? If u want to believe God had a son surely Adam fits the bill, he was the first man created and he had no mother or father so he has a legit claim opposed to the idea of Mary being inseminated with Gods child, astaghfuilah.


Out of curiosity I would like to know the surnames of those noble men who wrote the gospels, so far no Christian has been able to know it of the top of their head ( i.e. Mathew, Luke, Paul and Mark) who were they? non of their accounts confirm each others and are full of contradictions, incomplete and fabrications that’s why today there are over 25,000 different versions of the bible. The gospels were written thousands of years post Jesus death. I believe it was ONLY Paul that stated Jesus was the son of God but he proved himself to be a liar just look at the contradicting verses he wrote
Acts 9:3-7.....vs.....Acts 22 :6-10. So how can u take an out right liers word for it.

Now for the main course
Look at how God is described in the bible. He has nostrils and has smoke fume out of them when he is angry and rides angels to get from place to place. Is this GOD?????? The verses are below use any online translation

2 Samuel 8:9 (god has nostreals, smoke comes out this is the concept of god)

2 Samuel 22:11

The idea of their being a son of God born to a virgin was an accepted norm in that community prior to the coming of Chrsitianity. Just read up on Attis and Uhdahrehs there are 3 more but I cant remember the names, I don’t even know if I spelt those names right. You would yourself see the basics of Christianity just don't add up. Scholars have confirmed the Bible has been tamperd with also a quote in the Bible says this too. So if u can't even get the basic basic basic basics rigth what are u following?
jesus was the MESSIAH that Isaiah spoke of. a call in the wilderness? (johnt he baptist?) it all adds up.

[Adz4eva]

jesus was the MESSIAH

No one has said he isnt the messiah, what they are saying is he worshipped God, the one true God, he never worshipped himself. Why do christians not follow his example and worship God aswel, instead they worship Jesus? Why do they make idols of Jesus aswel, thats another point, isnt idolatory forbidden in the Bible? Yet still you (not 'you' personally) make idols of Jesus PBUH and of Mary PBUH, why? How far can you possibly stray from the truth?

“And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.”
Holy Quran 5:116


Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
Holy Quran 5:75


Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."
Holy Quran 5:76


"O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.
Holy Quran 5:77


Ignorance will be no excuse, ciao :wavey:

[Muslima786]

lets look at this with some common sense here, in a language you may understand.

ok, jesus was God's son. when you are in trouble and you feel like the world is crashing down on you, and you have one person, who is your father, who do you talk to? prayer is communication, prayer is a way to connect to the one you trust with your life. God is my father as well, so I talk to him. Jesus, to me, is my brother. jesus also said, there is no way to the father, except through me. So, clearly they are NOT entirely seperate. so for simplicity sake: Jesus is the body, God is the mind, the holy spirit is the soul of God.

if you dont agree, then stick to your religion, but dont bash ours. i have not said anything bashing Islam, but alot of the crap you said was wrong. the old testament was written by over 30 authors, I dont know where the hell you got your other number from.
i still dont understand :(

[ggggunit]

..........

[typeOnegative]

Muslims trying to run down Christianity. Go Muslims Go! Hoot Hoot!

Christians not turning the other cheek. shame shame.

[cabanachica]

Muslims trying to run down Christianity. Go Muslims Go! Hoot Hoot!

Christians not turning the other cheek. shame shame.


or.. maybe we just dont give a damn.. we know what we're capable of.

[sharthap]

or.. maybe we just dont give a damn.. we know what we're capable of.

er...u missed the sarcasm.

[Fantom]

@ christians in this thread

I dont see the point in sparring intellectual arguments in a discussion like this. The beliefs of the people arguing here are far too deepseated and established to be shaken by any argument regardless of how convincing it may be. Any convincing argument will just make you all go away and search for counterarguments even harder. Any Christian who converts to Islam is misguided as far as im concerned, and any Muslim who converts to Christianity can expect a terrible life ahead and in many cases death. But thats just my personal opinion. Better to avoid those trying to bait u into long winded arguments. Jesus is Lord. end of story, let God witness to them in His own time and infinite wisdom.

[Adz4eva]

@ christians in this thread

I dont see the point in sparring intellectual arguments in a discussion like this. The beliefs of the people arguing here are far too deepseated and established to be shaken by any argument regardless of how convincing it may be. Any convincing argument will just make you all go away and search for counterarguments even harder. Any Christian who converts to Islam is misguided as far as im concerned, and any Muslim who converts to Christianity can expect a terrible life ahead and in many cases death. But thats just my personal opinion. Better to avoid those trying to bait u into long winded arguments. Jesus is Lord. end of story, let God witness to them in His own time and infinite wisdom.

What a load of tripe.

[Fantom]

as is most of what you posted feller.

[Adz4eva]

Better to avoid those trying to bait u into long winded arguments. Jesus is Lord. end of story

In other words... accept everything you have been told, dont question it, dont speak to those with differing views, dont try to use your brain.

Then you talk about the beliefs of the people here being far too 'deepseated and established to be shaken by any argument' :rolleyes:

[Fantom]

I have looked into it in detail and over a period of many years which is why i do say what i say with such certainty. And also illustrates my point. just as i feel so strongly about my beliefs so do u for yours. hence no amount of argument is gona bring about any change. dialogue is useless only the divine power of the Lord can bring about changes of heart and mind, and i dont see him in this thread. thankyou byebye